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Tripledoc is offline Tripledoc
Chieftain

Jan 2003
time: 05:21
  Old Post 08-10-2004 15:06
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Russia plans to arm Venezuela to counter US backed Colombia. Got spare money?

Russia-Venezuela Alliance Takes Flight

by Humberto Márquez
CARACAS - The Venezuelan army plans to acquire 40 Russian helicopters within the next few months in the first step towards a new "strategic alliance" with Moscow promoted by President Hugo Chávez, who is further marking his distance from Washington.

The deal was agreed this week in the Russian capital by Vice President José Vicente Rangel, a veteran politician of the Venezuelan left, and army commander General Raúl Baduel as part of business and bilateral economic and technological cooperation accords worth around $1 billion.

Russian companies also announced their interest in investing $500 million in an alumina plant – alumina is used to produced aluminum – in southeastern Venezuela, and in investing capital and technology in joint ventures in the oil and natural gas industry.

According to Venezuelan Ambassador to Russia Carlos Mendoza, Russian President Vladimir Putin will visit Venezuela in late November.

The helicopters will reduce the Venezuelan government's reliance on U.S. weaponry and technology. They will be deployed along the country's western border with Colombia, whose right-wing government is a staunch ally of the U.S. administration of George W. Bush, who has sent hundreds of military advisers to back Colombia's fight against leftist insurgents.

"I still have doubts as to whether the sale of the helicopters will actually go through, especially if we're talking about gunship helicopters or helicopters that can be fitted with missiles, because Russia inherited the Soviet Union's respect for the U.S. superpower's areas of influence," Carlos Romero, a professor of graduate studies in international relations at the Central University in Caracas, told IPS.

Before heading to Moscow this week, Rangel said the helicopters would be basically used as backup for patrols along the border. Last month, irregular combatants from Colombia, who have still not been identified, crossed into Venezuela and killed five Venezuelan soldiers and an oil company engineer.

The helicopters would also be used for civil defense in emergencies and disasters, and to fight forest fires, the vice president added.

Political analyst Alberto Garrido at the University of Los Andes in southwestern Venezuela told IPS that "the purchase of arms from Russia forms part of Chávez's long-term project, which envisions his Bolivarian social revolution catching on in the rest of South America to counter U.S. hegemonic designs, whose military vanguard is in Colombia."

Another local academic, Aníbal Romero at the Simón Bolívar University, cited rumors according to which Venezuela may try to acquire MiG-29 combat planes and light arms from the Ukraine after purchasing the Mi-26 helicopters. In his view, that could open the doors to military cooperation between Venezuela and Cuba, which uses those weapons systems.

"I don't think our officers will learn Russian quickly, to read the manuals and train with the new weaponry. That task will undoubtedly fall to the Cubans," said Aníbal Romero, who believes "the [Chávez] regime is taking advantage of the Yanqui [U.S.] shortsightedness and insatiable appetite for oil."

But Rangel noted that the helicopters that Venezuela plans to buy are already used by other countries in the region, like Mexico, Peru and even Colombia.

Garrido pointed out that the left-leaning Chávez has repeatedly underlined Venezuela's neutrality with respect to Colombia's four-decade armed conflict.

"No one should come and try to win us over as allies for any war. We will only be allies for peace," the president said during a visit to the border shortly after the September incident in which the soldiers and engineer were killed when armed attackers ambushed a PDVSA (Venezuela's oil monopoly) inspection team in Venezuelan territory.

Colombia's ministers of the interior and defense, Sabas Pretelt and Jorge Uribe, have urged Caracas to cooperate closely with Bogota to fight the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), the main rebel group, which the Colombian government blames for the September attack.

This week, the head of the U.S. army Southern Command, General James Hill, complained on a visit to Bogota of Venezuela's lack of support for Colombia's civil war.

Hill said Colombia's armed conflict was not only that country's business, but also a concern for all of its neighbors, who should all cooperate. He added that Ecuador, Brazil, Peru and Panama understood that, and said he hoped Venezuela would one day realize it as well.

By contrast, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said during a visit to Brazil this week that "We still have differences of opinion, of course. . . . But we're looking for ways to cooperate" with Caracas.

Chávez has repeatedly accused the United States of supporting the Venezuelan opposition alliance in its attempt to remove him from power in a short-lived April 2002 coup d'etat.

But Powell said in a news briefing that despite Chávez's rhetoric, Venezuela is a reliable oil supplier and the Bush administration has not ruled out the possibility of improving bilateral relations.

In Moscow, Rangel welcomed Powell's overture, stating that "the differences between us are political, and political issues are resolved by talking."

"We also want to have excellent relations with the United States," said the vice president, who added that his government is willing to "reformulate our policy . . . as long as Washington recognizes that Venezuela is an absolutely sovereign, free and independent country which enjoys democracy and constitutional stability."

Venezuela's status as the world's fifth largest oil producer, and the fact that it supplies 1.5 million barrels a day to the United States – approximately 15 percent of U.S. oil imports – are seen by analysts as key factors influencing relations between Washington and Caracas.

Another element is that Chávez's mandate was strengthened when 59 percent of voters expressed their support for him in the Aug. 15 presidential recall referendum, the results of which were endorsed by the Organization of American States (OAS) and the Carter Center headed by former U.S. president Jimmy Carter.

Referring to the referendum, Powell said "that's over and behind us."

Against that backdrop, Chávez "has reaffirmed his focus on a goal he has held since taking office in 1999: to insert Venezuela in a multilateral global scenario, towards which he aims to strengthen 'strategic alliances' with Russia and China, in the first place," said Carlos Romero.

In November, Chávez will travel to China, India and Iran, with which he is seeking closer political ties while negotiating economic agreements. He will also visit Spain and perhaps a few countries in Africa, he said last Sunday.

In addition, the president will be heading to Moscow at an unspecified date.

Chávez is also pressing for political, economic and even military integration in South America, with a special emphasis on energy integration.

Venezuela recently became an associate member of the Mercosur (Southern Common Market) trade bloc, whose full members are Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay.

(Inter Press Service)

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:21
  Old Post 08-10-2004 15:40
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So RusAl is Putins new lapdog...

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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  Old Post 08-10-2004 22:46 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Tripledoc the name of your thread has absolutley NOTHING to do with this article. Thanks.

Tripledoc is offline Tripledoc
Chieftain

Jan 2003
time: 05:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 15:18
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Mr. Striker.

I beg your pardon, but are you saying that this is NOT a new Cold War?

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 16:22
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Chavez is only trying to save his own ass by getting his military to be less dependent upon American arms. All dictators behave in the same way.

Tripledoc is offline Tripledoc
Chieftain

Jan 2003
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 16:40
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How is Chavez a dictator? Are you indicating that he is not demcratically elected?

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
How is Chavez a dictator? Are you indicating that he is not demcratically elected?


This "democratically elected" argument sounds just like the argmentst that Mossadegh was not a dictator simply because he was elected prime minister by parliament despite the fact that later he was granted dictatorial powers by that same parliament then promptly dismissed parliament permanently through a rigged national referrendum.

Sound familiar at all?

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
time: 00:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:02
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Ned - no fair. You mentioning history from sixty years ago. Chavez was democratically elected, but all inidications are that he rigged the recall using electronic voting, WSJ has carried some excellent analysis, and please note I normally mistrust them they are a bit doctrinaire and biased - to the right. Chavez's own personal hero is the famous South American strongman whose name now escapes me (I should have been in bed one hour ago, but I had to help mommy get my little picture to the left ready for services) - I'm fried, without alchohol. He also has some rhetoric that is Cuban-style, but IMHO he is using that to catapult him into a downtrodden people's hero, to increase his power. Che G**** (I cannot spell right now - especially in Spanish which I don't speak) he is not, a new Castro, maybe but I don't even think he can take credit for that. I suspect he's just another strongman trying to come to power in a country with a hideous economic disparity, and using that to trick the downtrodden into putting him into control.

Tripledoc is offline Tripledoc
Chieftain

Jan 2003
time: 05:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:02
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And your (Ned) parable justifies incursion against Columbian sovereignty?'

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:11
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Columbian?

Now that the dictator has stolen one election, will anyone trust that the next election in Venezuela will be honest, especially if it is certified by that well know pro-dicator ex-pathetic-president Carter?

Tripledoc is offline Tripledoc
Chieftain

Jan 2003
time: 05:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:17
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Sorry. Meant Venezuelan.

However, is it your opinion that the fact that a country is a dictatorship serves as justification for attempt to destabilize established order in said country?

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
time: 23:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:20
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Not necessarily, but hasn't he been spouting off about "spreading the revolution"?

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:20
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Tripledoc, perhaps. I think we should insist on US or OAS monitors to the next regular election. If Chavez refuses and he wins a fraudulent election, then of course we let the Venezuelan military do its "thing."

Tripledoc is offline Tripledoc
Chieftain

Jan 2003
time: 05:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:26
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But as you stated there were monitors present during the last elections. Former President Carter being one of them.

You expressed your distaste regarding said ex-president. Is it your opinion that one should be able to find more objective monitors - if one can phrase it that way? For instance a former Republican president.

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
time: 00:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:26
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Monk, you are absolutely correct, and he wants to buy Russian jet fighters while he does it. The Russians don't support him, but for them business is business. Ned, one-half a good idea. Get OAS to establish and Americas intervention force to intervene in areas of suspect voting - I can see the next headline - Florida invaded by OAS vote monitors.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
But as you stated there were monitors present during the last elections. Former President Carter being one of them.

You expressed your distaste regarding said ex-president. Is it your opinion that one should be able to find more objective monitors - if one can phrase it that way? For instance a former Republican president.


I would like a monitor who is truely committed to democracy and is not so pathetically anti-American.

Tripledoc is offline Tripledoc
Chieftain

Jan 2003
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:32
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So a reasonable monitor would be someone who is pro-american?

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Monk, you are absolutely correct, and he wants to buy Russian jet fighters while he does it. The Russians don't support him, but for them business is business. Ned, one-half a good idea. Get OAS to establish and Americas intervention force to intervene in areas of suspect voting - I can see the next headline - Florida invaded by OAS vote monitors.


Shawn, sounds like a plan!

Really, Florida 2000 was a real PAIN. Had Gore simply demanded a state-wide recount with uniform standards for chads, he would have prevailed in his legal battle. Instead, he tried to rig the recounts and eventually both the Florida and the US Supreme Court called him on the unfairness of what he was trying to do.

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:36
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Ned - my only real complaint in Florida was the bogus contract to purge felons from the voter lists. That was pretty raw, but we're in danger of high-jacking the thread where I was just joking.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
So a reasonable monitor would be someone who is pro-american?


Anyone who is truly commited to democracy is pro-American.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Ned - my only real complaint in Florida was the bogus contract to purge felons from the voter lists. That was pretty raw, but we're in danger of high-jacking the thread where I was just joking.


Of course shawn. And I agree with you and Che that keeping 90,000 felons from voting denied Gore 90,000 votes.

Tripledoc is offline Tripledoc
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:40
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I see. But is it then not a problem that elements within the opposition recently tried to stage a coup againts Chavez. How does this conform with the standards of democracy?

Ned is offline Ned
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
I see. But is it then not a problem that elements within the opposition recently tried to stage a coup againts Chavez. How does this conform with the standards of democracy?


Are you a fan of Star Wars?

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 19:15
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Ned, the problem was that a substantial number of innocent people (several thousand) lost their votes, and they were not given any notice that it had happened until they showed up! That's what was raw, plus they structured it using census data so it would not target Hispanics (which did not exist when the data they CHOSE to use was tkaen) and over-targeted blacks. The latter is dirty politics (redundant) the first threatens democracy. They tried to do it again (the Florida Secrectary of State - who is Republican) and FOIA requests forced them to divulge. When they did, they stopped it. "The guilty fleeth..." Again, neither of us can resist that last word bit - but at least I think I'm going to go to bed - or at least I was an hour ago. It's all your fault!

Tripledoc, you are correct. Some elements of the opposition are even less democratic than Chavez (he was democratically elected the first time, at least). The problem is that most of the opposition is democratic, and he is seizing the power of the state using strategems that look like they came out of Germany in the early 1930's.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 19:36
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Shawn, thousands of people lost their votes in Florida due to technicalities? Really??????

Ask the Gore supporters about overseas military whose votes were not counted due to just such technicalities.

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 19:54
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Ned - straw man. Each case (example you cite) was wrong, but in this case the technicality was CREATED via a contract with a private vendor. They also tracked down memos, and the specific intent was to not worry about accidentally denying voters their rite to vote, as over half the people being disenfranchised were black... (obvious demographic understanding necessary here). An expat American tracked down the memos, he works in Britian now, and has actually written a book on it. (also why I loathe the US press - look how little coverage it got - it was OLD news by then).

It's the difference between accident (stupidity, incompetence, et al) and deliberately setting out to do it. This was an explicit attempt to deny genuine voters the right to vote. By the way, it happened in South Dakota to the Lakota from the local Democratic machine, and helped Daschele win the the state (WSJ did excellent documentation on that one) - Lakota got fed up, told the local anti-Lakota machine politicians to go shove it, did a major voter registration drive, kicked out the local machine, and since most were Democrats (local machine does not equal national party) Daschele got reelected. Note I didn't accuse the national Rebuplicans of doing this - it was purely local, the Secretary of State, whatever her name was for sure, and possibly involvement by parts of Jeb Bush's administation, it's been three years since I heard the story.

Ned is offline Ned
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 19:56
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shawn, was the problem that certain people were on the felons list who were not felons?

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 20:10
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Actually several thousand. The Florida Secretary of State knew it - as I said, the reporter FOI'd the memo's. They also acknowledged it would affect primarily black voters, were aware of it, and did nothing to give people taken off the voter list a chance to even find out what had happened to them. Wrong for the Democrats during Jim Crow, wrong for the Republicans in charge of Florida. I also feel that the NAACP and Democrats were gutless not to force the issue, though some friends have made the point that A) the Supreme Court had already said get on with it essentially and B) the country didn't need even more divisiveness. IMHO, gutless, because that woman whose name escapes me should be barred from public service, as should anybody who took part in the plan. By the way, they tried to do it again this time, and when the new (repeat) plans were revealed via FOI, terminated the plan. That's why I suspect it wasn't just the Secretary of State, she's no longer part of the Jeb Bush administration.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 09-10-2004 20:28
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IIRC, the US Civil Rights Commission conducted an investigation and concluded there was no violation.

To repeat, there is a underlying assumption here that felons are Democrats.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:21
  Old Post 09-10-2004 20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned


Anyone who is truly commited to democracy is pro-American.

And Americans wonder why they're decried as arrogant.

 
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