13-10-2004 20:49									#31
	Get a bigger avatar today!

LOTM: do you happen to work in the software gaming industry? you are seriously starting to sound like someone pirating a game personally hurts you.

i've been unhappy with numerous games due to bugs, missing features, horrible preformance(i love when you are above minimum specs yet the game runs at 2fps), and sometimes i just don't like them when i thought i would have(*cough* civ3). like i said before games to me are like music. i play the same ones over and over again. new games have to be better for me to like them. movies/books don't have to be better they just have to be about the same as the old ones i liked and i will still be happy.

games are expensive so i expect a minimum of enjoyment. if i rent a movie or buy a book and don't like it i can swallow losing $5-10. i usually like bad books and movies more than bad music and games which i usually never get my money's worth from. i won't listen to crappy music more than once and i won't finish or even put many hours into a bad game. a bad movie i will watch once which is the same as many good movies. a bad book i usually won't read but i've only come across a few books i've bought and not liked enough to finish them.

	13-10-2004 21:31									#32
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by pg LOTM: do you happen to work in the software gaming industry? you are seriously starting to sound like someone pirating a game personally hurts you.

whether pirating hurts us as consumers is yet another contorversy, and one i dont plan to pursue now.

Pirating was raised in another thread about game prices. The mention seemed to imply that pirating was the only rational response to being disappointed in buying games. That didnt make sense to me, so i thought id explore the issue. thats all.


Look, lots of posts including yours make a strong argument for "downloading" to see IF you like a game. Im still not convinced most of the disappointments couldnt be avoided by waiting to here the buzz. Yeah there are system specific problems. but most missing features, bugs, etc are identified. But i still see the point. But the individual who first raised the issue in the pricing thread is NOT someone who DL's, and then decides to either buy or to erase. He DL's decides the game IS worth playing, but not worth the price, so he keeps it for free. IOW this is a game worth say $10 to him, but it costs $50, so he just keeps it for free, and uses the $10 worth of gameplay. You cant do that with most things you buy, and it doesnt seem right to me, somehow.

	15-10-2004 02:06									#33
	Put an end to popups!

I think because i love gaming and have done since i first took it up, i've always felt like i wanted to buy games - to keep people making new ones etc.

Of course money is the problem, but i either saved my pocket money or worked to afford the games. I must have bought a good few hundred origonal titles in my time as a gamer?

Still even i've ended up with pirated titles. I remeber when i bought my first 5.25" floopy drive(for my atari800) - it cost £150 and came with a load of software, most of it 'special' multi title super turbo loading games.
There were about 100 full price comercial games, all pirated and packed onto about a dozen disks.
Still my distaste(at pirated games) soon turned to appriciation - this baby would load a game in seconds(about 5!!), when my normal floopy games would take a few minutes or so

And apart from a few hard to get titles from the site with no name, thats about all i've done to support pirated stuff. But i can see the no-demo issue as being a real bad move for the industry to take, it must encourage piracy and i think once someone gets used to pirateing then its a hard habit to break. So we need more demos, and not rubbish thrown together ones either.

And back on topic i'd say that even though i bit*h and moan about our current games industry and the games that come out - i do actualy enjoy many recent games

1. LMA football manager 2004 - xbox
2. KOTOR - xbox
3. Beyond good and evil - xbox
4. Judge Dredd(i just like dredd) - xbox
5. Ghost Recon - xbox
6. Pirates of the Caribbean - xbox
7. Morrowind - xbox

Are all great games for me :b

Pc is a bit tricky as my pc is a dino - so not many(none!) new games run on it, but i use the ones at work sometimes to run my newer titles.

1.Medieval - total war
2.Eu2

These are probably the newest pc games i've bought, and that was a couple of years ago!

But its true my disapointment list is about twice the size for recent releases. It just worries me, so i vent a bit for which i partialy feel justified in doing

Last edited by child of Thor on 16-10-2004 at 13:59

	16-10-2004 08:29									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Look, lots of posts including yours make a strong argument for "downloading" to see IF you like a game.

there is no argument, you are ignoring reality. people are going to download games to try them. you can talk about logic and reason but that doesn't do anything really. fact of the matter is it makes sense to warez games before you buy them.

quote: Im still not convinced most of the disappointments couldnt be avoided by waiting to here the buzz.

this is also another reason i buy less games. i am informed, and no longer swayed by advertising. bad for game companies but good for me.

quote: Yeah there are system specific problems. but most missing features, bugs, etc are identified.

most of them are not indentified when i came across them. that is part of the reason i always read about games now and buy less of them because i was not aware of these things. it is also patently ridiculous to expect consumer to spend time finding all the flaws in games they want to buy before hand. quality products should not ship with such things. id, blizzard, etc still make quality games and they still are rewarded for it by big sales. i won't buy doom 3 until i upgrade but i own wc3 and wc3:tft.

quote: He DL's decides the game IS worth playing, but not worth the price, so he keeps it for free.

so you'd rather he lost his money by buying it because it supports bad game companies? so basically you want people to get ripped off so long as the gaming industry makes more money. would you also think this would work in the long run? maybe this is why the gaming industry is failing because they put out such crap which is only worth $10 out of $50.

quote: IOW this is a game worth say $10 to him, but it costs $50, so he just keeps it for free, and uses the $10 worth of gameplay. You cant do that with most things you buy, and it doesnt seem right to me, somehow.

yes, it doesn't seem right, but it is the new reality. if you want to charge full price for a game you have to have a full price game. you can no longer ripoff informed and educated consumers. personally i am not disturbed by the downfall of the computer gaming industry because i think it will force it back to it's roots(being gameplay over graphics).

piracy has been around forever. when the gaming industry blames pirates it's like all those companies blaming 9/11 for their decrease in profits. it doesn't add up. it's just a scapegoat they can get away with because people don't know any better.

	18-10-2004 14:56									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Only a couple of games got me unhappy.

Starfeet Command I read great reviews about, but it turned out to be a pile of bird droppings, at least for me. I wrote a not so great review of the game and sent it to Games Domain. As exepected they ignored it.

Call to Power was very disappointing, complete with a dreadful interface.

The Sims also sucked, but I didn't expect much of it, so it was all right.

These days I try to read different opinions here -- much more reliable than other review websites since we don't need to please the game publishers. I will also see if somebody has the game for me to try.

Unfortunately, there are no bargain bins in the game shops here.

Last edited by Urban Ranger on 19-10-2004 at 11:53

	18-10-2004 18:34									#36
	Put an end to popups!

[QUOTE] Originally posted by pg

quote: there is no argument, you are ignoring reality.

How have i ignored reality? Where have i said people wont pirate games?

quote: you can talk about logic and reason

thats a weakness of mine, i like to talk about those things

quote: but that doesn't do anything really.

I dunno, its possible SOMEONE will be swayed by an ethical discussion - but we're getting WAY OT with that.

quote: fact of the matter is it makes sense to warez games before you buy them.

What makes sense for an individual may not make sense for all of us together as a game buying public.

quote: most of them are not indentified when i came across them. that is part of the reason i always read about games now and buy less of them because i was not aware of these things.

I meant identified by the community.

quote: it is also patently ridiculous to expect consumer to spend time finding all the flaws in games they want to buy before hand.

I check out a movie before i go see it, since it may well include "flaws" i dont like. If i were paying $50 to see a movie, id do more serious research.

quote: so you'd rather he lost his money by buying it because it supports bad game companies?

Well, I think if he DLs a game that retails for $50, and its worth say, $15 to him, he should find of way of at least giving the company $15. Maybe send them an anonymous money order? Or maybe buy the game, when the price finally comes down? Or maybe go buy an expansion pack when it comes out?

Alternatively he could decide NOT TO PLAY games that he thinks arent worth the price, and instead support games that ARE worth the price. And if he cant find enough from big companies to fill his time, he can go buy from indies, etc. And if there STILL arent enough, maybe he can find other ways to use his time.

quote: yes, it doesn't seem right, but it is the new reality.

If and when they come down on game pirates, you'll just accept that as "reality" and not whine? Good.

quote: personally i am not disturbed by the downfall of the computer gaming industry because i think it will force it back to it's roots(being gameplay over graphics).

If you want to support indies making high gameplay, low graphics games, MORE POWER TO YOU. Thats not what i was arguing against. It was folks who want to play the high graphics games, but dont pay for them. Free riding on everyone else.

quote: piracy has been around forever. when the gaming industry blames pirates it's like all those companies blaming 9/11 for their decrease in profits. it doesn't add up. it's just a scapegoat they can get away with because people don't know any better.

The impact of piracy on the state of the industry is a different question, and i dont really know enough about the industry to argue it. My impression is no one here does, those arguments are past carried on at quarter to three or CSIPGS.

	18-10-2004 21:53									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's personality thing. Some people read manuals before hooking up their gadgets or play their games. Some people just jump into without reading the accompanying manuals and sometimes mucking up their purchases.

Not that much different from buying games. Some people take time to research the game they're thinking of going after while others don't. Some are easily affected by hype while some are not.

Take me for instance, my friends were amazed that I could walk into a car dealership for the first time ever and walk away without buying anything although I've found what appeared to be a great deal. It was hard but I resisted buying the car and took a month to research into what kind of car I wanted, contacted dealerships and stuff like that. In the end I'm extremely happy with the car I finally decided on.

Researching isn't foolproof but at same time it've saved me a lot of grief associated with buying a product I am not happy with.

With games I am extremely careful with what I buy. I do not have that much free time in my life to play games so I'm very selective with what I spend my money on. Take Civ 3 for instance, I kind of wish that I waited for CIV to come out instead of buying Civ 3, I did not realize that CIV was in works at the time I bought the game. That's ok although, I do like the game despite its faults.

	19-10-2004 10:47									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I just thought I'd say when I made that post above I was a little pissed off for other reasons. Did anyone notice?

Anyways, I am getting sorta tired of the "gaming industry is DOOMED!" discussions because they seem to get no where. My personal opinion is low budget games should be made more. Games with 2d graphics that don't require a 60 man army 5 years, and 30 million dollars to make.

Just to use an example Battle for Wesnoth was created in about a year in people's spare time for free and is better than 95%+ of most commerical games. How can you explain that? How does the quality vary so much within an industry worth so much money? How are there still games coming out that don't rise to the technical level, or feature set of games from 1996(or older)? I just don't understand it.

Is it just because most gaming consumers are totally uneducated and swayed by marketing so they buy all this crap? Is it because developers are all chasing the mega-sellers because they aren't spending their own money to develop games but if they do make a mega-seller they still reap the rewards? Isn't anyone in the gaming industry to do it as a living, not get rich?

	19-10-2004 10:56									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm very positive that the industry has both kinds of people - the one who's in for the fun of doing it and the one who's in for the money.

As for consumers, I understand and relate to your frustration but overally the consumer base is like lemmings. Mindless fools.

	19-10-2004 18:30									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by pg I just thought I'd say when I made that post above I was a little pissed off for other reasons. Did anyone notice? Anyways, I am getting sorta tired of the "gaming industry is DOOMED!" discussions because they seem to get no where. My personal opinion is low budget games should be made more. Games with 2d graphics that don't require a 60 man army 5 years, and 30 million dollars to make. Just to use an example Battle for Wesnoth was created in about a year in people's spare time for free and is better than 95%+ of most commerical games. How can you explain that? How does the quality vary so much within an industry worth so much money? How are there still games coming out that don't rise to the technical level, or feature set of games from 1996(or older)? I just don't understand it. Is it just because most gaming consumers are totally uneducated and swayed by marketing so they buy all this crap? Is it because developers are all chasing the mega-sellers because they aren't spending their own money to develop games but if they do make a mega-seller they still reap the rewards? Isn't anyone in the gaming industry to do it as a living, not get rich?

My sense is that most developers are trying to make a
living, not get rich. But in this kind of industry, like movies theres a lot of built in incentive to go for the blockbuster. A low sales title has a hard time getting shelf space in the retail market, a hard time getting buzz, etc. I look at the developers in the historical wargames market - they get along without retail presence, and with buzz confined to their niche customers - they make a living (barely) but dont get rich. Perhaps this can happen in other niches (though i saw something about one of the flight sim makers going out of business due to - you guessed it - piracy) In the bigger genres, im not sure its possible. and it does get to the market. We all know that a Civ2 sold huge numbers of copies with the graphics of its time. And we know people here (for example) who are in love with gameplay. But would a Civ2 really sell so well today?

and theres another reason for the variability. These are still creative products, works of art, to some degree. Like films, novels, etc. You cant just add x many inputs and get genius. It sometimes happens and sometimes doesnt.

	19-10-2004 18:49									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I've come to the realisation that nobody can tell me in advance whether I am going to like a game, except maybe a couple of my closest friends whose tastes I know coincide strongly with my own. Unfortunately they don't play PC games much, so its usually me telling them what is hot and what is not.

When GAME had its 10 day no-questions return policy it was not a problem. I could buy games I trusted to be good via import on day one and anything else I could buy from Game. If it sucked so badly I couldn't stand keeping it for 10 days, it went back. That allowed me to experiment with a wide range of games and barely half a dozen got returned.

These days my philosophy is similar. Anything likely to be good I get via a legitimate source. Anything dubious I reluctantly DL and if its still installed a week later I'll order a copy. I can't rely on forums and websites to tell me if these are going to be good or bad: ToEE and MoO3 have both given me 60+ hours of entertainment. Galciv sends me to sleep before anything interesting happens. So I can't even expect Apolytoners to suggest good games for me, and I trust the taste of you guys more than any FPS addicted magazine reviewers or general games board crowd.

The one thing I don't do is whine on a forum if a game is bad. I might well warn others, but I don't go hurling abuse at developers unless they missed so many bugs there just had to be a directive from the publisher to ship and be damned.

	20-10-2004 02:06									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I had a bit of an argument in GAME about their changing their returns policy - half hearted as i know its not likely to have any affect but i was annoyed. I asked what happens if its doesn't work and they pointed me to the minimum requirements.

Maybe someday when i'm rich and have a good lawyer i'll take back a game where my PC meets the minimum requirements but doesn't work.

I'm not so bothered about returning a game i don't like (well i am but i accept it) but i am annoyed at being stuck with some that won't run because my PC made of very common, almost standard components won't run it and the publisher/developers won't patch it.

	20-10-2004 13:47									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Radio did not die when TV came along, as well newspapers when radio swept across the planet, now likewise TBS games are heading in toto to 3-D. Nice I guess, however what of the idea of going back to 2-D and with the added computing power and knowledge; with our gaming tastes and make a game with all the bells and whistles our experience and dreams have accumulated.

New ground is fine, but every day? I want a near universal game editor, that includes AI routines and making separate AI's in one game, each with a different personality. Another idea is having two threads going so the user 'always has control' of the interface even when the AI's are calculating and even when they are moving on screen! So one can choose to 'watch' or not or even switch around and pile up 'orders' for your next move.

Screw the 3-D engines if they steal the computing power that could now be going to a host of other things. Such as AI's that learn and morph. Gosh, give me CIV2 looks and 2005 computing power, experience and genius!

Thanks for the podium,

	20-10-2004 16:08									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, the only way to make an AI that learns is through a neural net. There are very few games that use it, most notably the less-than-stellar 'SuperPower'.

	20-10-2004 21:22									#45
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Standup I had a bit of an argument in GAME about their changing their returns policy - half hearted as i know its not likely to have any affect but i was annoyed. I asked what happens if its doesn't work and they pointed me to the minimum requirements. Maybe someday when i'm rich and have a good lawyer i'll take back a game where my PC meets the minimum requirements but doesn't work. I'm not so bothered about returning a game i don't like (well i am but i accept it) but i am annoyed at being stuck with some that won't run because my PC made of very common, almost standard components won't run it and the publisher/developers won't patch it.

I did once successfully get the manager to take a game back because I went in with it and a printout of my dxdiag and specs to prove I met every requirement they quoted, plus the readme file where they acknowledged that the game was not compatible with cetain hardware they neglected to mention on the box. You've got to be prepared to be assertive of course, but it can work in the end.

	21-10-2004 07:15									#46
	Suffering from ads?

Well I picked up a game call Superpower and it was just a bug fest very hard to get to work . Put it on the shelf and forgot it .Thats was 2 years ago. But between patches and mods it so improved it worth playing again just never know
Look at Call to Power 2

	21-10-2004 08:22									#47
	Inflate your Upload Space

ctp2 still doesn't seem like a good game to play.

or is it?

I must say I'm happy with my Sims2 purchase, but unhapy with my purchase of Doom3. Does that make me gay?

	21-10-2004 16:30									#48
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident ctp2 still doesn't seem like a good game to play. or is it? I must say I'm happy with my Sims2 purchase, but unhapy with my purchase of Doom3. Does that make me gay?

ref CTP2 it depends - i've always liked it(even the origonal!), it was a civ-like but better looking and sounding game to me Most of the Mods and updates that have been made for it just made it better for me. Still if you really hated it from the begining, then chances are you still will.

And yes very gay i'd say but its good to be happy

	21-10-2004 18:04									#49
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Pirating games is like bumming cigarettes.

	22-10-2004 04:02									#50
	Support Apolyton

quote: When GAME had its 10 day no-questions return policy it was not a problem. I could buy games I trusted to be good via import on day one and anything else I could buy from Game. If it sucked so badly I couldn't stand keeping it for 10 days, it went back. That allowed me to experiment with a wide range of games and barely half a dozen got returned.

That to me seems a reasonable compromise between piracy and between being stuck with a poor game.

If more companies did this, there would be no reason to pirate games in order to try them to see how they worked.

I know I did that with the Diablo 2 demo, before I added memory onto my computer, and the performance made a big difference and now I know I can run it properly.

	22-10-2004 06:51									#51
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by pg I just thought I'd say when I made that post above I was a little pissed off for other reasons. Did anyone notice? Anyways, I am getting sorta tired of the "gaming industry is DOOMED!"

Its not DOOMED. But perhaps it has only HALF of its LIFE left? Indeed, PIRATES! are a problem, but the PC game death spiral is almost certainly a FABLE, at least for now. I mean its not all BLACK and WHITE, you know.

	22-10-2004 21:06									#53
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

* DrSpike approves.

	22-10-2004 21:52									#54
	Increase Your PM Length

Good as I QUAKED to think what your reaction might be, and its a FAR CRY from what i feared would SMACk me in the face.

	22-10-2004 22:27									#55
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Don't push it.

	22-10-2004 22:35									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thats ok, Im done.

	23-10-2004 04:27									#57
	Put an end to popups!

I read a post on quartertothree that says developers make about the same money developing $1 million games as $5 million+ games. Is this true? Maybe that's the problem...

	23-10-2004 06:17									#58
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

all I can say is I'm very happy with my Sim2 purchase. As gay as this game is, I like it . But I'm unhappy with my Doom3 purchase.

I only bought 2 games this year (the 2 I listed above), and that's all I plan on buying. There are a couple games coming out in december, but I expect to get those as christmas presents

	23-10-2004 14:17									#59
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident As gay as this game is, I like it .

They should put that on the cover.

	23-10-2004 14:31									#60
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by pg I read a post on quartertothree that says developers make about the same money developing $1 million games as $5 million+ games. Is this true? Maybe that's the problem...

I must admit, to my shame, i dont know the site you mention(but i should be able to google it) - but yes if there is truth in that claim, then that will make many developers(well their funders) uncomfortable.
Still i just feel that games are costing way too much to make full stop.

As an interesting thought, we know that for a big release title its bugget will roughly be split 50/50 between marketing and development. Well a game i rather like, and think is a good game - has just been released(22/10/04) here in the uk.
Non of the main online review sites have a review of it - in fact its had such a non-marketing release, i wonder how many of you guys even know it came out.

I'm talking about 'LMA manager 2005' - the LMA series of football(soccer) managment games have been exclusively for console upto now. This latest release also has a PC version. It has its fans - i guess the thing it offers over other management games of its type(Championship Manager being the big daddy) is the very good real-time match engine, where you see your team play out your tactical choices - it does it very well.

Anyway i did wonder at this lack of marketing approach. The Codemasters are quite a smart outfit when it comes to games, and they've been in the industry since the early days.
Maybe they've decided a mass-marketing approach is too much of a waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere(or not at all to save it?)?

We need to produce games more cheaply.