09-10-2004 19:28									#31
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Liberals are really libertines seeking justification for counter-cultural behavior (behaviour for you).

	09-10-2004 19:29									#32
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quote: BTW, Whaleboy, you should study law. Judges constantly must make decisions based that are based on judgments of right and wrong. You'd love it.

No, judges make decisions based upon statute and moral philosophy in specific cases (usually medical ethics at this time). Relativism aids in the existentialist sense (it lends itself to subjectivism).

	09-10-2004 19:30									#33
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quote: Liberals are really libertines seeking justification for counter-cultural behavior (behaviour for you).

A wonderful little psychological assessment of a centuries-old label . Worthless and meaningless ad hominem in other words.

	09-10-2004 19:40									#34
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Whaleboy, I of course speak of modern liberals, not those who in the past centuries argued for more liberty.

	09-10-2004 19:44									#35
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And yet you accuse modern liberals of justifying a counter-culture, and presumably against the prohibition of elements of that culture, which is libertarian in itself.

Another attack on your position is causal... is one liberal to justify counter-culture, or does one engage in "counter-culture" because of liberalism? Of course, in reality, take a look at the intellectual liberals you know of both here and in real life. It's an intellectual position, not a fashion!

	09-10-2004 19:46									#36
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...furthermore, I would ask you to define liberalism for the purposes of this debate.

I content that all people, conservative and liberal, want to make the world better, they merely disagree on how to do it. To argue with regards to non universalisable self-interest is ad-hominem, which is after all what you do best isn't it?

	09-10-2004 19:47									#37
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Liberalism today is defined in the phrase -- "If it feels good, do it."

	09-10-2004 19:49									#38
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As to the judicial process, I urge you to pick up some case books and read a few decisions. You'd been impressed. I recommend reading a little of a US jurist known as Cardozo.

	09-10-2004 19:56									#39
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quote: Liberalism today is defined in the phrase -- "If it feels good, do it."

quote: NOUN: 1. The state or quality of being liberal. 2a. A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority. b. often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party. 3. An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard. 4. Liberalism a. A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology. b. A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition 2000.

	09-10-2004 19:57									#40
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Whaleboy, you prove my point. Modern liberalism has strayed from its roots.

	09-10-2004 20:01									#41
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quote: As to the judicial process, I urge you to pick up some case books and read a few decisions. You'd been impressed. I recommend reading a little of a US jurist known as Cardozo.

I've read Cardozo for years. You do realise he supports my position. Read "The Paradoxes of Legal Science" and you'll see. He explores the question of absolutist ethics and the limitation of judges objectivity quite nicely here . That of course, for the ideal and not the implimentation which he recognises is flawed. Not that it means anything in the field in which we are discussing of course.

	09-10-2004 20:02									#42
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quote: Whaleboy, you prove my point. Modern liberalism has strayed from its roots.

You provide absolutely no evidence for that. You're just saying that liberalism = some kind of hedonism, without supporting it at all! It sounds to me more like something daddy told you at the age of four and you haven't quite worked up the intellectual fortitude to challenge it.

	09-10-2004 20:05									#43
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Whaleboy, while not founding the idea of modern liberalism as libertinism, the Beatles were icons for the movement with their "hair" and promotion of drug use.

	09-10-2004 20:09									#44
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Hang on a second... you're saying that the Beatles are somehow representative of modern liberalism? How can you possible go from something vaguely symptomatic to such a sweeping statement?

Hair and promotion of drug use? How firstly does that have any bearing upon liberalism as a premise and how secondly does liberalism promote drug use (which is different to legitimising it)?

The nedaverse is indeed a strange place. One might even say that you're smoking something...

	09-10-2004 20:15									#45
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I spent most of the day at a polling booth. All I got for my trouble was a sunburn. But I had a nice day.

We won the booth and the seat, but not government.

So I go back to work for dark side on Monday

The best part of the day was being a party scrutineer. Over 4,200 voted at that booth. That's a big booth. People were queued up in the morning.

99 votes were informal (spoiled). Most of them were blank, on others people made a mistake - like ticking boxes instead of numbering them.

Some people wrote messages. The highlights:

. One had just written "GET STUFFED" scrawled across the bottom. Cute - they even brought their own light blue felt pen to do it. Why? Some wrote worse.

. One voter rather mysteriously just wrote "Suzy Quatro" in large letters on the ballot and nothing else. Perhaps lobbying for a tour??? Unrequited Love??? We'll never know.

. Another wrote "Go the Bulldogs!" (a sports team which just won a championship). I think I know who that was - a young guy - he was wearing their jersey.

. Another marked the ballot correctly but then added a couple more boxes of their own with the pencil, numbered those, and then wrote "What noise does a kangaroo make?" across the bottom of the ballot. Bizarre. It seems some voters can remember to vote but not to take their medication.

. One voter wrote a long message starting "They are all liars and cheats....." On and on it went from there in spidery writing - I didn't read it all.

. Another just wrote "I don't trust any of them."


My advice to any of you is don't moan about politics - "get involved". Win or lose, you play your part and then even losing doesn't seem quite so bad. That's the way I feel now. The workers from other parties were cool people. I liked all of them. We shared food and stuff, and talked a lot.

A very beautiful young woman asked me for a lift after the election party too! *throb* She said she was getting divorced and wanted to get trashed......There were a lot of hot passionate young women at that party.

But I was good :angel:

	09-10-2004 20:18									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Hang on a second... you're saying that the Beatles are somehow representative of modern liberalism? How can you possible go from something vaguely symptomatic to such a sweeping statement? Hair and promotion of drug use? How firstly does that have any bearing upon liberalism as a premise and how secondly does liberalism promote drug use (which is different to legitimising it)? The nedaverse is indeed a strange place. One might even say that you're smoking something...

Sure, Whaleboy. I just wanted to point out what happened in the 60s.

	09-10-2004 20:26									#47
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That's fine, but I don't think you can attack modern liberalism using that as a premise or an example. I don't see modern liberalism being anything especially different from classical liberalism, same essential philosophy, different implimentation because of a different world.

	09-10-2004 20:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk You were having an election? Why didn't you say so?

Cuz no one cares?

	09-10-2004 20:35									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy That's fine, but I don't think you can attack modern liberalism using that as a premise or an example. I don't see modern liberalism being anything especially different from classical liberalism, same essential philosophy, different implimentation because of a different world.

But it is more true today that "conservatives," at least in the US, are more about promoting individual liberty from government control of their lives than so-called liberals, who are, at least in the US, more concerned about promoting, as you suggest, hedonism.

	09-10-2004 21:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk You were having an election? Why didn't you say so? Cuz no one cares?

Nailed it right in the head there. I mean, Australian Idol outrated the debate a few weeks back. If that little tidbit wasn't actually mentioned in the news the next day, I don't think Australia would have even known there was a debate going on.

	09-10-2004 21:12									#51
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quote: My advice to any of you is don't moan about politics - "get involved". Win or lose, you play your part and then even losing doesn't seem quite so bad. That's the way I feel now. The workers from other parties were cool people. I liked all of them. We shared food and stuff, and talked a lot.

I think getting involved also makes people less cynical about the process.

Although I'm surprised that in Australia they allow state workers to act as party functionaries.

	09-10-2004 21:16									#52
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'm leaving the country.

What about Canada? Their the "Junkheap of Global Liberal Losers who can't hack it in their home nation of birth."

Seriously.


I've seen the bumper sticker.

	10-10-2004 04:52									#53
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Urgh - I didn't see this result coming. I though Labor would at least pick up a seat or two

However, what's got me really depressed is the prospect of the Liberals controlling the Senate in alliance with a Christian fundamentalist. Goodbye Medicare, Telstra, the last remnants of a fair IR system, media cross-ownership laws and independant Senate hearings.

What a disaster

Last edited by Case on 10-10-2004 at 05:01

	10-10-2004 05:17									#54
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Congratulations Australia on the election.

Deep down inside, you're okay.

	10-10-2004 06:21									#55
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Hooray, no Labor for another few years!

	10-10-2004 06:26									#56
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Aww... poor Australia, with its mandatory voting statute voted in a conservative, pro-US Prime Minister. Those American bastards!!

You guys can be unbelievable, I sometimes wonder if you ever really think.

If Australia voted (and in theory 100% of the population did) for a Pro-US, pro-Iraq War, pro-conservative PM, then thats who the Australian people want and those are the values that reflect them best. Australia shouldn't be held in any higher or lower regard than the US itself because clearly their outlooks on the world are congruous.

The moral is: if you're going to be xenophobic and discriminatory, at least be consistent.

	10-10-2004 08:28									#57
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Geez, dude. Who pissed in your cornflakes? From what I've been told, US-related issues weren't predominate in this election (it's Australia, not the US, after all).

	10-10-2004 08:31									#58
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* chegitz guevara crosses Oz off possible places for being an ex-pat for the next few years.

	10-10-2004 09:00									#59
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From what I've seen, the major issue for people was the economy.

	10-10-2004 09:52									#60
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Dang, Whaleboy had a nice turnaround. He was getting pwnd by Ned at the beginning, but he turned it into an impressively decisive victory