12-10-2004 02:50									#61
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Whigs and Republicans have always been pro-business and the use of government to build infrastructure. Because of this, Democrats since the days of Jackson have demonized Republicans as being the party of the rich... Naturally, some of this demonization has stuck, which helps explain why minorities initially gravitate to the Democrat party until they themelves gain middle class status, when they become Republicans.

	12-10-2004 02:56									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Democrats since the days of Jackson have demonized Republicans as being the party of the rich...

They ARE the party of the rich. Privileged male voters are mostly Republicans.

	12-10-2004 03:00									#63
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Odin, agreed. Since 1836, successful people have generally support the Republican Party for a reason.

	12-10-2004 03:02									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Odin, agreed. Since 1836, successful people have generally support the Republican Party for a reason.

I have a couple of friends in Boston who make a very large amount of money per year.
Do you know who theyre voting for this year? Bush.
Do you know why? They like to save their money

	12-10-2004 03:14									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I have a couple of friends in Boston who make a very large amount of money per year. Do you know who theyre voting for this year? Bush. Do you know why? They like to save their money

Voting one's pocketbook is a rule of thumb.

	12-10-2004 04:09									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Odin, agreed. Since 1836, successful people have generally support the Republican Party for a reason.

Yes, the Republican Party has been supporting the nailing down in place of the Wheel of Fortune so that the currently unsuccessful can't become successful and replace the currently successful.

	12-10-2004 04:30									#67
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Maybe it would be more precise to say that they don't want anyone messing with the way that the wheel is spun.

	12-10-2004 04:33									#68
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quote: Democrats since the days of Jackson have demonized Republicans as being the party of the rich...

That'd be a little difficult since the Republicans didn't exist during the days of Jackson.

The opposition party, the Whigs, were the party of the rich (particularly, of industrialists). The Democrats were the party of the common (white) guy, who were politically allied with plantation owners in opposition to industrial protectionism.

	12-10-2004 06:39									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Naturally, some of this demonization has stuck, which helps explain why minorities initially gravitate to the Democrat party until they themelves gain middle class status, when they become Republicans.

Oh yeah?

African American Statistics:



A 2% swing between lower and upper classes, with the middle class being the LEAST LIKELY to be Republican - sure seems like your wrong.

Hispanic Statistics (at the bottom):



So there's a 17% difference between those making <20,000 and those who make 50,000+...but only a 4 % difference between 20-30,000 and 50,000, and only a 7% difference between <20 and 30-50,000. In fact, the number DECREASES between 20-30 and 30-50. And before Sept, 11, it was a lot more inthe dems favor. and the Democrats STILL lead in all categories.

Another one of your broad assumptions that doesn't pass muster.

	12-10-2004 07:22									#70
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Snap.

	12-10-2004 08:19									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DanS No I don't. This just demonstrates how badly the Dems have screwed up on the social issues. In less than a generation, the south went from strong D to strong R. Damn it. Don't use that map. It screws up the thread!

The flipping of the south happened in the 1960's because the Democrates had the gual to claim that blacks were equal to whites.

Most concervative southerners couldn't stomach that kind of liberalism and switched parties. Now they've admited that blacks are equal to whites but they continue to vote Republican.

	12-10-2004 08:34									#73
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That doesn't quite make sense Oerdin. Are you suggesting that they are Repbulicans by accident, rather than them having issues that bind them to the GOP in each election?

	12-10-2004 08:42									#74
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No, I am saying that in the 1960's the Democrates pushed for civil rights and that alienated most white southerners. Those alienated southerners ran to the Republican party who promised to not be so aggressive on social issues.

	12-10-2004 10:15									#75
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Oerdin, it would be interesting to see the electoral map of the 1968 election. IIRC the party switch did not take place in earnest until 1972. In 1968, the Democrat Party fractured into the Northern Dems and those who backed Wallace. If Nixon took some Southern states, it was because the Democrat vote was divided.

The **** really hit the fan for the Southern Democrats when in 1972 the Dems nominated the antiwar McGovern as their candidate. At least the Southern Dems were patriotic. So the doubly whammy of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and McGovern caused a massive switch to occur.

	12-10-2004 10:19									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: Democrats since the days of Jackson have demonized Republicans as being the party of the rich... That'd be a little difficult since the Republicans didn't exist during the days of Jackson. The opposition party, the Whigs, were the party of the rich (particularly, of industrialists). The Democrats were the party of the common (white) guy, who were politically allied with plantation owners in opposition to industrial protectionism.

Please quote the entire paragraph next time where I mentioned the Whigs in the previous sentence. The Republican Party in a sense inherited the Northern Whigs, but the demonization started by Jackson against the Whigs continued against the Republicans. That was my point and everyone but you seemed to understand it.

	12-10-2004 10:22									#77
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It took about twenty years for the switch to be complete, probably because the GOP didn't come right out and yell "White Supremacy Forever!" even if some of their new Repugs had shouted such slogans in their youth (Strom Thurmond anyone?)

Even Reagan talked in code, refering to Welfare Queens, etc., though in the Deep South, the codes were discarded. "How many times have you seen a strapping young buck pay for a couple of t-bone stakes with food stamps then drive off in his new Cadillac?" was used in at least one speech by the Gipper according to Playboy magazine (I forget which issue).

	12-10-2004 10:22									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Odin They ARE the party of the rich. Privileged male voters are mostly Republicans.

That's not how Republicans of minority races, ethnicities, Republican women, and those who are gay see it.

	12-10-2004 10:25									#79
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Here's what happened in '68. It illustrates that the South's switch to the Republican Party occurred in '72 and later.

Attachment: 1968 electoral map2.jpg
This has been downloaded 41 time(s).

	12-10-2004 19:02									#80
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Oh, so you decided to use real numbers this time...a good move, IMHO

	12-10-2004 19:13									#81
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TEF, as to the minority figures, it does support what I said about the party switch, but just not to the degree I thought. I must say that I was truly surprised by the figures. What this tells me is that the Republicans have a golden opportunity to get the minority middle class to switch parties. We should be doing more trying to understand why they are not coming over to the party that protects their interests better.

	12-10-2004 19:15									#82
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quote: We should be doing more trying to understand why they are not coming over to the party that protects their interests better.

I see your penchant for the incorrect isn't limited to numbers.

	12-10-2004 19:20									#83
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TEF, I see. An please explain why being pro-business and pro-growth is antithetical to the minority middle class?

	12-10-2004 19:32									#84
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Does anyone else find the phrase "economically liberal" ambiguous and confusing?

No. It refers unambiguously to economic rightism.

	12-10-2004 19:36									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist No. It refers unambiguously to economic rightism.

By comparison only. The economic liberal in the US is a socialist.

	12-10-2004 19:39									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ned TEF, I see. An please explain why being pro-business and pro-growth is antithetical to the minority middle class?

Middle-classers tend to like welfare (as long as it protects them at least as much as the underclass, at any rate).

	12-10-2004 19:40									#87
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You kid yourself when you think that growth is a partisan issue. You also kid yourself if you think that Republicans are for the middle class, and especially for the minority middle class. Why do you think that Bush's economic policies have been deemed the "War on the Middle Class", much like Reagan's were deemed the "War on the Poor".

You also seem to think that economics are the sole reason for party affiliation. That completely discounts the humanity, a great reason why African-Americans are overwhelmingly Democrat, and Hispanics remain largely Democrat even while the younger generation is assuming more conservative values (though there is a growing dissent in conservative hispanics, who like GWB but don't like the party that panders to Rich WASPs).

	12-10-2004 19:46									#88
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quote: Why do you think that Bush's economic policies have been deemed the "War on the Middle Class"

That's easy. Because Dems want to win the next election.

It's just stupid rhetoric that doesn't have nearly as much impact as the Dems believe.

	12-10-2004 19:54									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Middle-classers tend to like welfare (as long as it protects them at least as much as the underclass, at any rate).

Really????

Middle classers really are squeezed by high taxes and high cost of living. They certainly resent the welfare state that pays people for not working.

	12-10-2004 19:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous You kid yourself when you think that growth is a partisan issue. You also kid yourself if you think that Republicans are for the middle class, and especially for the minority middle class. Why do you think that Bush's economic policies have been deemed the "War on the Middle Class", much like Reagan's were deemed the "War on the Poor". You also seem to think that economics are the sole reason for party affiliation. That completely discounts the humanity, a great reason why African-Americans are overwhelmingly Democrat, and Hispanics remain largely Democrat even while the younger generation is assuming more conservative values (though there is a growing dissent in conservative hispanics, who like GWB but don't like the party that panders to Rich WASPs).

The problem I see is not that the Republicans are against the middle class, as they are not. It is the Demonization of Republicans by Democrats as being rascists which is the problem.

As to the Dems being pro-growth, that is laughable as they are always anti-business as far back as I can remember.