12-10-2004 13:49									#31
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quote: Like if you take a 100 girls in similar state with access to guns and 100 girls with access to knives, more girls with guns will have killed.

More psychotics will kill with either.

quote: Maybe Im a coward, but It would be easier for me to kill someone with a gun than say a knife, and I would have to be angrier and for a longer period of time to kill someone by punching him repeatedly than to shoot with a gun.

That's what I meant by psychological distance, guns give us some. Cruise missiles give us even more... The point is this girl isn't you, she's evil. Going by what the police said, she was mad at mommy for grounding her. It takes a perverse mind to turn that into a reason to kill and a perverse mind will find a way to kill even if there is no gun available.

quote: 48-year-old Elvira Marion Walton was shot and killed ...

Oh man, she killed Elvira in Texas?

	12-10-2004 13:56									#32
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Indeed the brother really has some story to tell now...
"Yeah, when I was 10years old I turned my sister in for shooting my mother in the face... thats why I need to hide now somewhere, since my mad sister is out of prison now after 15years and she pledged revenge..."

Hmm, could be used as an Intro for a movie, with the mainpart being the sister hunting him...

	12-10-2004 14:17									#33
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Death penalty for children?

God the US is third world sometimes.

	12-10-2004 14:35									#34
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4th world, really. Somalia is the only other country that allows it, IIRC.

	12-10-2004 14:36									#35
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Frankly, I don't see the difference. The 12 year old knew what she was doing. It's called murder.

Now, if you want to argue about whether or not we should have the death penalty at all, that's a different argument, and I can somewhat see your point. But assuming we have the death penalty, it should CERTAINLY be applied here.

	12-10-2004 14:37									#36
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Ok, 4th world then.

	12-10-2004 14:40									#37
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Hey, in Texas, if you kill someone, we'll kill you back!

Moral of the story: Don't kill people.

	12-10-2004 14:42									#38
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hey, in Texas, if you kill someone, we'll kill you back! Moral of the story: Don't kill people.

I am perpetually both amused and scared how people can say that with a straight face.

	12-10-2004 14:43									#39
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Like I said, I can certainly understand and largely agree with objections to the death penalty. But let me reiterate - if it exists, then it should apply to cases like this.

	12-10-2004 14:44									#40
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OTOH, the purpose of the criminal justice system is NOT rehabilitation (at least not in Texas/the US) - it's punishment.

	12-10-2004 14:45									#41
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It's barbaric. The poor kid needs help not execution.

	12-10-2004 14:46									#42
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Same could be said for the "poor 40 year old". The kid may need help, but she blew her chance when she committed murder. Sorry, tough ****. Don't ****ing kill people - I don't care how ****ed up you are, you had a choice whether or not to commit murder. When you choose to commit murder, expect consequences. In Texas, dire consequences.

	12-10-2004 14:47									#43
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But in executing them aren't you stealing a piece of their property (their physical bodies). That's almost as bad as taxation!

	12-10-2004 14:49									#44
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quote: But in executing them aren't you stealing a piece of their property (their physical bodies). That's almost as bad as taxation!

As I said, I can easily see objections to the DP - my point is simply that if it exists, it should certainly apply in this case.

	12-10-2004 14:50									#45
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Then why aren't you starting a libertarian revolt against this unlawful theft of property?

	12-10-2004 14:52									#46
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By the same argument, incarceration is a violation of rights, but no Libertarian opposes prison.

Let's not turn this into a discussion about the fairness of the DP or criminal punishment - simply put, there is no reason I can see that a 12 year old who commits cold blooded murder should be treated differently than a 32 year old who does the same.

	12-10-2004 14:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd OTOH, the purpose of the criminal justice system is NOT rehabilitation (at least not in Texas/the US) - it's punishment.

There are three purposes for imprisonment.

1. Punishment
2. Protect the public from dangerous individuals
3. Rehabilitation

If you forget about #3 then you give the criminals no chance of ever doing anything else but being criminals. For most crimes the punishment isn't life in prison, after that you want the offender to become a productive member of society if at all possible. Aside from the social benefits they'll also be working and making money, paying taxes so contributing to society not costing you money in policing, courts, prisons etc.

Ignoring rehabilitation is totally stupid and short-sighted.

Anyway executing someone in the us is more expensive than keeping them in prison 'cause of all the appeals and **** that you have to have, there is the potential to make a mistake and kill an innoccent person which there can never be any justification for and personally I think that executing someone is less of a punishment than restricting their freedom and keeping them alive. Once they're dead that's it, punishment over.

	12-10-2004 14:57									#48
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd By the same argument, incarceration is a violation of rights, but no Libertarian opposes prison. Let's not turn this into a discussion about the fairness of the DP or criminal punishment - simply put, there is no reason I can see that a 12 year old who commits cold blooded murder should be treated differently than a 32 year old who does the same.

What about a 5 year old?

Presumeably you'd also support equal voting, drinking, smoking, working, marriage, driving, sexual etc rights for the 12 year old?

	12-10-2004 14:57									#49
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So some theft of property is okay (death penalty) but others are not (taxation to fund social programs needed to help society's less fortunate)?

Why not throw your hat in the ring against all theft, Dave? Stand up for your ideals. Don't get all hand-wringy on petty technicalities.

	12-10-2004 15:55									#50
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quote: It's barbaric. The poor kid needs help not execution.

Yeah, the little darling is an orphan.

quote: But in executing them aren't you stealing a piece of their property (their physical bodies).

Nope, not any more than killing in self-defense is murder.

	12-10-2004 16:01									#51
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I can't wait until US society gets out of the 19th century. :

	12-10-2004 16:04									#52
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quote: Frankly, I don't see the difference. The 12 year old knew what she was doing. It's called murder.

That's quite a presumption. If she was psychotic then no she didn't. If she was sociopathic, then she did (but that generally occurs in late teenage+ men). If she did know what she was doing, she is still a child and not capable of being responsible for her actions. Otherwise, why not let her have sex, drink and drive too?

Death penalty is crazy enough as it is, but let's not get into a death penalty vs. reason debate here. Absolutely ridiculous that people could even THINK to apply it to a child. You'd note of course it's the heartless b**tards here who are advocating the DP for her, and DP in general... without going into ad hominem, does that not tell you something?

	12-10-2004 16:05									#53
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quote: OTOH, the purpose of the criminal justice system is NOT rehabilitation (at least not in Texas/the US) - it's punishment.

Vengeance, punitive revenge is not justice. It may feel like justice to those who have been wronged, or those with the pretense of moral outrage to save face with their peers, but it is not objective justice, which is defined as being objective to humans. Vengeance is indeed the complete antithesis to justice, by definition they are inversely proportional.

	12-10-2004 16:07									#54
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It's also amazing how many people who support the death penalty also oppose abortion in all cases, one of the most hypocritical stances you could think of.

	12-10-2004 16:08									#55
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Oh and I saw someone say this girl is evil. If you're trolling; 2/10. If you're serious, then methinks you need help yourself.

How in the name of hell can you possibly say that someone is evil because of one action? You dont know her, you know absolutely nothing about her life, and by the looks of things, you know absolutely nothing about the concept of evil itself! Take your "moral outrage", the self-dilusion that it is and turn it on yourself for some serious self examination, I think some people here that are advocating the killing of this child are seriously screwed up themselves .

	12-10-2004 16:09									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH It's also amazing how many people who support the death penalty also oppose abortion in all cases, one of the most hypocritical stances you could think of.

God I know, sometimes it feels like a culture of death... the value of life (and I don't want to bring abortion into this because I'm undecided there) seems to mean very little to these people, unless of course those lives happen to agree with them.

	12-10-2004 16:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Oh and I saw someone say this girl is evil. If you're trolling; 2/10. If you're serious, then methinks you need help yourself. How in the name of hell can you possibly say that someone is evil because of one action? You dont know her, you know absolutely nothing about her life, and by the looks of things, you know absolutely nothing about the concept of evil itself! Take your "moral outrage", the self-dilusion that it is and turn it on yourself for some serious self examination, I think some people here that are advocating the killing of this child are seriously screwed up themselves .

The world is black and white, there are no shades of grey. It's us and them, good vs evil. We either destroy evil or evil destroys us. She's probably a witch! Burn her!

	12-10-2004 16:25									#59
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quote: Nope, not any more than killing in self-defense is murder.

What are you smoking? You can't argue self-defense in cases of DP considering that the prisoner is bound, caged and without access to weapons. It's vengeance pure and simple.

	12-10-2004 17:20									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat 4th world, really. Somalia is the only other country that allows it, IIRC.

Jesus Christ! Check your facts before you go bad mouthing people. China, Russia, most of the former USSR, most of the middle east, most of Africa, and probably a few more still use the death penalty.

The countries that don't use the death penalty generally fall into two catagories. 1) Members of the EU or countries which hope to become members of the EU. 2) Catholic countries that follow the dictates of the Pope.

There's a spill over effect from this as left leaning states try to immitate the EU by outlawing the death penalty.