12-10-2004 17:34									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Jesus Christ! Check your facts before you go bad mouthing people. China, Russia, most of the former USSR, most of the middle east, most of Africa, and probably a few more still use the death penalty. The countries that don't use the death penalty generally fall into two catagories. 1) Members of the EU or countries which hope to become members of the EU. 2) Catholic countries that follow the dictates of the Pope. There's a spill over effect from this as left leaning states try to immitate the EU by outlawing the death penalty.

Jesus Christ! Check the context before you post. That quote was referring to death penalty for children.

	12-10-2004 17:36									#62
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quote: Jesus Christ! Check your facts before you go bad mouthing people. China, Russia, most of the former USSR, most of the middle east, most of Africa, and probably a few more still use the death penalty.

He was referring to the DP for children

quote: The countries that don't use the death penalty generally fall into two catagories. 1) Members of the EU or countries which hope to become members of the EU. 2) Catholic countries that follow the dictates of the Pope.

Ummm, the UK had the DP outlawed before we were members of the EU.

quote: There's a spill over effect from this as left leaning states try to immitate the EU by outlawing the death penalty.

wtf? I love the way you present it as the natural order, or the way it should be and those that do not do it are somehow malfunctional or inadequate . Ned's DL?

	12-10-2004 17:39									#63
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd OTOH, the purpose of the criminal justice system is NOT rehabilitation (at least not in Texas/the US) - it's punishment.

Rehabilitation is one of the main reasons of the justice system, however, some crimes are considered so horrible that no rehabilitation can occur. Thus the best thing the state can do is make an example out of those criminals in order to get a deterent effect.

	12-10-2004 17:44									#64
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quote: Rehabilitation is one of the main reasons of the justice system, however, some crimes are considered so horrible that no rehabilitation can occur. Thus the best thing the state can do is make an example out of those criminals in order to get a deterent effect.

Learn your history. If you're a sociopath, severe psychopath or psychotic, deterrents aren't going to stop you from killing. In nations where it was abolished, there has not been seen a significant rise in the murder rates, and even in the USA, murder is still ridiculously high. Far better to look at the reasons for that, not least guns.

Deterrents would only work with hot-blood (second degree) murder, like killing in self-defense, where rational people may be more inclined to stop themselves if they think of the deterrent in a given situation. But then, even the USA does not execute for second-degree murder, so the point is defunct.

	12-10-2004 18:05									#65
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The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrant. There has been enough research into it over the years.

	12-10-2004 18:44									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Learn your history.

Having read a great many of your posts I am confident I know far more about history then you do.

quote: If you're a sociopath, severe psychopath or psychotic, deterrents aren't going to stop you from killing.

Only a small portion of murders are sociopaths or psychopaths. Numerous studies have shown the deterent effect works well on most of the other would be murders. Factor in other variables (i.e. the over all crime rate, the number of people in the young male age group, the strength of the economy, etc...) you come up with a rough figure of the number of crimes detered. Sure, it's a guess but we are trying to figure out the number of murders that didn't happen so it will always be a guess.

	12-10-2004 18:50									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrant. There has been enough research into it over the years.

There's been tons of research and for every study you have which says there isn't a deterent I can show one which says it does work as a deterent. The DP, like gun control, attracts alot of nonscientific politically motivated fake studies. The good scienctific studies control for various factors and take a neutral approach.

A few years back the Economist did an issue one the death penalty and their conclusion was there was a slight demonstrable deterent effect from the death penalty. They also showed a decrease in violent crime after concieled handgun permits were allowed for law abiding citizens.

	12-10-2004 18:51									#68
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Sounds like you are referring to Ehrlich's work which has some serious logical flaws and has been almost universally discredited. The evidence shows the opposite. It has no deterrent effect at all and it is much, much more expensive.

http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html

	12-10-2004 18:51									#69
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I don't know.. I just don't know.. I mean she was only 12.. but then again, she was already 12.. old enough to know better. If this was like a 4 year old kid, I think that person couldn't be held responsible for the whole mess, just partially.. but she was 12. There's a big difference when 12 year old gets grounded or what ever punished, and that person starts messing things up and refusing to do things and locking to their rooms and throwing stuff.

Then there's the person who goes to grab a gun and shoots her mom in the face while she sleeps, because she couldn't go out with some boys. 12, 20, 50, I don't care, that person IS responsible in my books. 12 years olds can't handle their emotions so well and actions? Yeah but they don't go shooting people in the face while they sleep! That is NOT normal. That's not 'it got out of the hands a little' or 'I was blinded by anger'. That's some sick stuff right there, period.

I don't believe in DP, so I don't think she should get that. But I do think she needs to be isolated and examined, and punished. I wouldn't let her out when she turns 18.

	12-10-2004 18:53									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin They also showed a decrease in violent crime after concieled handgun permits were allowed for law abiding citizens.

I assume they also made an estimate at the number of accidental deaths or injuries per year before and after the new legislation?

	12-10-2004 18:56									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There's been tons of research and for every study you have which says there isn't a deterent I can show one which says it does work as a deterent. The DP, like gun control, attracts alot of nonscientific politically motivated fake studies. The good scienctific studies control for various factors and take a neutral approach. A few years back the Economist did an issue one the death penalty and their conclusion was there was a slight demonstrable deterent effect from the death penalty. They also showed a decrease in violent crime after concieled handgun permits were allowed for law abiding citizens.

If what you are saying is that we can't prove one way or another if it's a deterrent then we have to ignore deterrent as a factor in determining whether to use it or not. Which leaves us with the morality and cost arguments.

1. It costs the state more to execute than imprison.
2. Whether or not you think that executing murderers is ok or not there can be no debate that executing an innocent person is murder, no matter how good/fair the legal system is there will always be mistakes made. Innocent people have and will continue to be executed. Is there any way anyone can morally justify this?

	12-10-2004 19:05									#72
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Mike: It does cost more to execute a prisoner then to give him life in prison but, at least in California, those costs have been greatly reduced. The study you linked used data from 1988 but in the early 1990's the state of California passed a new law which had appeals for DP cases go directly to the state Supreme court instead of through the various appellate courts. The cases would have reached the Supreme Court any way only now we've skipped 2-3 of the minor courts thus saving costs and duplicate work. That speed up the time between sentence and the sentence being carried out plus it freed up space in the courts. The prisoner still gets to see the state and federal supreme courts so he gets his rights but the state cut its costs significantly.

Here is a nice article written by George E. Pataki the Governor of New York State.
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Articles/Pataki.htm

With in two months of Pataki coming into office New York reinstated the death penalty. The results? Violent crime has dropped 23, assaults are down 22, and murders have dropped by nearly one-third. Sure, some of that had to do with a good economy and an aging population but the drop was so large and so sustained that the government of the state of New York has concluded that at least some part of the drop in violent crime must be the result of a deterrent effect.

	12-10-2004 19:10									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH If what you are saying is that we can't prove one way or another if it's a deterrent then we have to ignore deterrent as a factor in determining whether to use it or not. Which leaves us with the morality and cost arguments.

No, it most certainly can be proved that a deterrent effect exists, but, because of the number of politically motivated studies out there we have to be careful to only look at well done science and not crack pot science.

quote: Whether or not you think that executing murderers is ok or not there can be no debate that executing an innocent person is murder, no matter how good/fair the legal system is there will always be mistakes made. Innocent people have and will continue to be executed. Is there any way anyone can morally justify this?

There is no doubt that a certain extraordinarily small number of innocent people will be put on death row. Now with DNA evidience that number should be smaller then ever. Why do I continue to support the death penalty given this knowledge? Easy, the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few. Since there is a deterrent effect far more innocent people are saved each year then innocents put to death. Just see how few people are executed but presumably how large the number of people who are still alive because the deterrent works.

	12-10-2004 19:15									#74
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I shouldn't have got sidetracked by the deterrent issue. Whether or not it has a deterrent effect is, at the end of the day, totally irrelevent to the rights and wrongs of the issue. Increased crime detection has a huge deterrent effect as well. If people think they'll get caught they are less likely to commit crimes of any type. Personally I think that's a better way to deter crime than execution.

Cutting and speeding appeals means you are just more likely to execute innocent people doesn't it? Surely that's a bad thing. If you are going to execute people it's vital that you do everything possible to ensure you have the right one isn't it? Cutting down on appeals to cut costs is a very, very worrying step. You didn't answer the bit about innocent people getting executed.

And what about the racial bias in the penalties you are likely to receive for the same crimes? How can anyone justify an intrinsically system where more blacks get the death penalty than whites for exactly the same crimes?

	12-10-2004 19:19									#75
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quote: Having read a great many of your posts I am confident I know far more about history then you do.

Why do I find myself questioning your ability to back up your ego?

quote: Only a small portion of murders are sociopaths or psychopaths. Numerous studies have shown the deterent effect works well on most of the other would be murders. Factor in other variables (i.e. the over all crime rate, the number of people in the young male age group, the strength of the economy, etc...) you come up with a rough figure of the number of crimes detered. Sure, it's a guess but we are trying to figure out the number of murders that didn't happen so it will always be a guess.

The number of young people in most Western societies, including the USA, is actually decreasing due to the falling birthrate since the 60's.

A significant majority of those in jail for murder, severe violence and severe sexual assault are psychopathic (estimates are that 1% of the overall human population are psychopathic) many are sociopathic and a lot of the more dangerous killers are psychotic to some degree. I trust you know what the terms I have used mean. A lot of other killers have numerous other mental disorders.

Nonetheless, I'd like to see the studies which support your statement that the deterrent effect works on many would-be killers, by which I assume cold-blooded murder, since with hot blood the USA doesn't execute as far as I know.

quote: A few years back the Economist did an issue one the death penalty and their conclusion was there was a slight demonstrable deterent effect from the death penalty. They also showed a decrease in violent crime after concieled handgun permits were allowed for law abiding citizens.

quote: Sounds like you are referring to Ehrlich's work which has some serious logical flaws and has been almost universally discredited. The evidence shows the opposite. It has no deterrent effect at all and it is much, much more expensive.

You read my mind

I think that even if you can show a slight deterrent effect, that does not justify the death penalty, because in other words you are sacrificing people to a (slight at that) sociological end, which introduces some quite nasty slippery slopes, the risk of which I'd rather avoid.

MikeH, let's not forget the problem of revenge polluting justice, the woefully flawed idea of two wrongs making a right (an eye for an eye) the ethical concern of whether you can wholly define a person by that murder and eliminate them in a sense, eliminating the murder.

For every pro-DP argument I've heard I have seen it knocked down and replaced, the counters ignored because pro-DP seems to appeal to the testicles. Then, it is usually those that don't understand the anti-DP arguments that support pro-DP, after all the latter is a simpler position that's easier to understand .

The exception to that is the classic utilitarian argument for death penalty (needs of the many), which, oddly enough, most utilitarians seem to avoid since by a more advanced definition of happiness or welfare, it passes a point whereby the act becomes absurd.

So no, I think the pro-DP arguments are simplistic and apologetic for the primitive emotional state which causes society to kill in revenge, or perhaps as part of a witch-hunt or moral panic. I observe the people that support aren't exactly the type I would want running the country (tyranny of the idiots).

	12-10-2004 19:22									#76
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Is Capital Punishment a Unique Deterrent? A Dispassionate Review of Old and New Evidence, in Canadian Journal of Criminology
by Ezzat A. Fattah. 21 pgs.

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=95813074

Here is a fairly recent nonAmerican study which concludes there is indeed a deterrent effect with the death penalty.

	12-10-2004 19:25									#77
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Oerdin let me get this straight... you are advocating the execution of a 12 year old girl who in all likelihood is mentally ill in order to serve as a deterrent?

Society: "People won't respect us any more, we have to make them fear us. KILL THE CHILD!"

	12-10-2004 19:26									#78
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Revenge is wrong.

	12-10-2004 19:31									#79
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As is that study! Numerous assumptions to take DP to be good, and falls foul of Oerdin's own criteria of economic and social conditions.

Still doesn't support "an eye for an eye".

	12-10-2004 19:40									#80
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd OTOH, the purpose of the criminal justice system is NOT rehabilitation (at least not in Texas/the US) - it's punishment.

Bullsh*t. If the deterrent aspect doesn't work then the reform aspect is the next line. And if that doesn't work and the person is a danger to society, indefinite incarceration...

	12-10-2004 19:41									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I shouldn't have got sidetracked by the deterrent issue. Whether or not it has a deterrent effect is, at the end of the day, totally irrelevent to the rights and wrongs of the issue. Increased crime detection has a huge deterrent effect as well. If people think they'll get caught they are less likely to commit crimes of any type. Personally I think that's a better way to deter crime than execution.

I agree. Increasing crime detection is a great way to go and we need to persue that in every way possible. Does that mean we shouldn't also make use of the death penalty to deter crime and to punish the worst offenders?

quote: Cutting and speeding appeals means you are just more likely to execute innocent people doesn't it? Surely that's a bad thing. If you are going to execute people it's vital that you do everything possible to ensure you have the right one isn't it? Cutting down on appeals to cut costs is a very, very worrying step. You didn't answer the bit about innocent people getting executed.

The appilite courts don't actually have much power. If they agree or disagree then the case would still be sent on to the Supreme court unless both parties agree to not appeal. I think we can agree that is unlikely so little in the way of oversite has really been lost. We've just sent case directly to the people who can make final rulings instead of paper pushers who have no real power.

BTW check above for my anwser about innocent people on death row.

quote: And what about the racial bias in the penalties you are likely to receive for the same crimes? How can anyone justify an intrinsically system where more blacks get the death penalty than whites for exactly the same crimes?

There has been alot of talk about this but very little in the way of hard facts. HERE is a nice article on race and the death penalty.

quote: Often such discussion begins with the obvious: the race of the defendant. The Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC) reports that black murderers represent 35% of those executed, white murderers 56%. As the argument goes, this must be evidence of systemic racism, as blacks represent 12% of the population, whites 74%. [q] Fortunately, the United States does not execute people based on their population counts but on the murders they commit. As blacks represent 47% of murderers and whites 37%, we see that whites are twice as likely to be executed for committing murder as are their black counterparts

	12-10-2004 19:42									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Oerdin let me get this straight... you are advocating the execution of a 12 year old girl who in all likelihood is mentally ill in order to serve as a deterrent? Society: "People won't respect us any more, we have to make them fear us. KILL THE CHILD!"

No, I am not. If you check my first post I was most pointed in not supporting it. I am supporting death penalty in general though.

	12-10-2004 19:47									#83
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Whaleboy: You have written lots of "I thinks" and "I believes" but you haven't linked any studies which support your long disertations of opinion.

I notice that you originally started by claiming there was no deterrent effect, changing to there is a deterrent effect but I don't think it is large enough, going to the death penalty is nothing but revenge killing. Keep changing your argument and maybe you'll come up with a winner.

The death penalty isn't about revenge killing it is about making the punishment fit the crime and by having that punishment serve society through detering future crime. In short it is about justice and the good of society.

Last edited by Oerdin on 12-10-2004 at 19:54

	12-10-2004 19:57									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I agree. Increasing crime detection is a great way to go and we need to persue that in every way possible. Does that mean we shouldn't also make use of the death penalty to deter crime and to punish the worst offenders?

That's not why, but no, we shouldn't. I've posted plenty of reasons why not. You still haven't answered with your justification for supporting capital punishment despite the fact that it does (and always has and will) end with the execution of innocent people.

	12-10-2004 20:00									#85
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Quoted from page one.

quote: There is no doubt that a certain extraordinarily small number of innocent people will be put on death row. Now with DNA evidience that number should be smaller then ever. Why do I continue to support the death penalty given this knowledge? Easy, the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few. Since there is a deterrent effect far more innocent people are saved each year then innocents put to death. Just see how few people are executed but presumably how large the number of people who are still alive because the deterrent works.

Basically I'm playing a numbers game. I am assuming that the more innocent lives we save the better.

	12-10-2004 20:16									#86
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You think that murdering innocent people in the hope that it will prevent other people murdering other innocent people is ok?

We obviously just have very different principles.

	12-10-2004 20:34									#87
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Lock the girl up for a long, long time, if not life.

Don't give her the DP, because I only want that for those who kill multiple times or those who have done some utterly gruesome murder with no remorse.

	12-10-2004 20:39									#88
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No, that is not what I said. Texas is widely seen as the state which executes more people then anyone else yet in any given year the total number of people executed is around 100. That 100 represents around 2/3 of the total number of executions which occur in the US. Each of those people has been having their case reviewed for damn near two decades and their lawyers have tried just about every thing imaginable to get their clients off. These people have had a fair defense and they are certainly guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Are they guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? Some are but others aren't, however, the law says they must be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt not beyond a shadow of a doubt. I for one am very comfortable with the idea that these people are guilty. They've had 20 years worth of appeals, arguments, claims of "surprise evidience" and what not. Studies of the death penalty from 1930-today have shown about 0.06% of people on death row are later determined to be innocent and nearly all of them have been vindicated recently due to DNA evidience. Since we now do DNA reviews we can very confident that we do indeed have the right man in nearly all cases.

So if I must choice between the certainity of saving a large number of lives and between running the extremely, extremely small risk that perhaphes 1 innocent individual per century might possibly be executed then, like any good Vegas card man, I will play the odds. I can certainly save lives or I can do nothing and possibly execute the wrong man amoung hundreds of guilty men. That is an easy choice.

	12-10-2004 20:47									#89
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Yes it is an easy choice. The chance of executing the wrong man, no matter how slim is unacceptable. It doesn't matter if lives might be saved (and I don't give the same credance to the research that you do). If something is wrong it's wrong. I don't agree with "the ends justify the means". All that means is you have stooped to the same level as those you seek to condemn.

And in addition to that I have a fundamental objection to the state being allowed to cold bloodedly murder it's citizens, whether they are criminals or not.

	12-10-2004 20:54									#90
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The chance of executing the wrong peson is vanishingly small with modern scientific tools but the likely hood of saving innocent lives is very high. To say you won't save all of those people because you are morally afraid that someone some where might possibly be wrongfully accussed isn't moral. I'd say it is immoral to let those inncocent people die. In such a light the death penalty is surely justified.