17-10-2004 04:31									#61
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I knew it! You're voting Socialist, you closet communist, you!

	17-10-2004 04:33									#62
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joncha, No. But I also think it's my business and no one has the right to know, and that information plays no significant role in any discussion I'm willing to engage with someone in real life.

I will be offended simply because it's the unwritten rule in here and everyone knows it. If someone wouldn't know this and how we feel about it, then I couldn't be really offended. It's my business, no one elses. That's like asking 'so how much money do you make?' ..you know.. it's my business and only friends are allowed to ask that, and they get the answer or not. We simply do not discuss politics in here with friends and family, except on few occasions when there's something ****ed up and it's current news.

It's a secret. Just like if I get a letter, no one has the right to open it, not my parents, not my wife, not my friends, no one. And if they do, I'll be deeply offended. It's a secret, and I should not be forced to say it. No one has the right to put me or anyone else in that situation, where they are forced to say their business. It's personal. Including family and friends. Period.

It's like the other extreme from last elections in Iraq, the puppet elections where everyone just shouted SADDAM! and got back on to their business. In here, we have 'don't ask don't tell' policy. And it works great. No one gets any labels. And because we have that policy, it doesn't mean you would be embarrased not to tell. you see where I'm going with this? Without this policy, you get a perception where the other one is embarrased to tell. But since it's a policy not to tell, it doens't mean you're embarrased. No suspicion, no uncomfortable situations.

And it also destroys the atmosphere, where you can be mentally pressured to vote someone. Because it doesn't matter who you vote for, no one will come and bother you afterwards. So you can't pressure me either. And everyone accepts the 'I don't tell you'. Politics is a difficult subject in here to talka bout anyway. So we rather not. Why let that influence on your friendships and stuff? Politics is strictly forbidden in schools too, teachers are not allowed to say who they are for and why. It's forbidden in Universities as well, now that we have our municipal electiosn going on, no one is allowed to put posters etc in schools to promote a candidate. No ifs buts or ands. So when some people say everything is politics, or politics is everywhere.. not in here. And that's the way I like it.

Last edited by Pekka on 17-10-2004 at 04:39

	17-10-2004 04:35									#63
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The Socialist crack was aimed at Dis, but just as well you bit on it, Pekka.

	17-10-2004 04:36									#64
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Here in TN we get to vote early, including Saturday - polls are open from 9-5. Tomorrow the family JohnT will go on a voting excursion, taking Little Miss so she can get some exposure to the process.

Note to JohnT: escape the pit that is Tennessee.

	17-10-2004 04:37									#65
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Well, there's no such rules here, as you can plainly see. It's probably why there are so many US election threads and so few Finnish election threads.

Of course, if someone asks you who you're voting for, you can always decline to answer. Nobody would take it personally.

	17-10-2004 04:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Have you been paying attention to his posts for the past few months?

More like the past six.

	17-10-2004 04:41									#67
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DanS, sure you can say no everywhere. But like I said, you get labels from that with many people, just like joncha suspected I'd be embarrased to say who I vote for. That's not the case.

joncha, yeah I'm the biggest socialist you can find on this board. Or maybe you didn't do your homework on me very good this time.

	17-10-2004 04:42									#68
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Pekka: So I take it that there are no political yard signs or bumper stickers in Finland?

	17-10-2004 04:46									#69
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If by this you mean there are no signs and posters by the road and stuff? well yes and no. There are spaces that are reserved just for this purpose, and there's pictures of candidates and their numbers, and their names fo course and what party they represent. That's it.

Then of course you can distribute flyers if you want to. But no, you can't put your posters where every you feel like.

	17-10-2004 04:48									#70
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You mean people don't plaster their lawns with yard signs of who they support? Nobody has political yard sign stealing operations?

Y'all must have incredibly dull election campaigns.

	17-10-2004 04:50									#71
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Unlike, say, American election campaigns.

Well, to be fair, ours can be interesting, in a sort of sickening, to-what-depths-will-they-sink-next kind of way.

	17-10-2004 05:02									#72
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"You mean people don't plaster their lawns with yard signs of who they support? Nobody has political yard sign stealing operations?"

I've never ever seen this

Even the flyers, I think I have never seen anyone publicly distributing them, they're slipped into your mail box discreetly .

Yeah it's dull, but I dont' see why politics has to be a show. Politics is supposed to be in my opinion decision making, and I don't see how that can be a show. If it's a show, it means less facts, and less facts means poorer decisions as the facts are more vague. Every second of show is off from decision making and decision forming. So yeah it's VERY boring in here. However, I think a little twist in it would do good, but not via show.

also if it is a show, it means the ones who put a better show gets more visibility meaning they have better chances dominating. Some would say that there's nothing wrong in that, but while I agree it's not necessarily evil, I'm in for a more equal opportunity for politicians. Because at the end, I feel that our representors should be OUR representors, NOT the ones who put on the biggest show and basically steals everyone elses time to show their case. Yes, I'd like to sit in a big comfortable seat with potato chips and case of beer, and then have every candidate coming and telling me why they should be voted for, and what they want to do and what they are about, and everyone gets the same time and same conditions, no matter what their backround is. And i want to make my decision who I vote for from that, because I want to vote for the candidate I feel is the best to drive our country forward, not the one who makes biggest noise of themselves.

BUT of course candidates promote themselves. Usually the parties have their own budgets to promote their candidates, meaning that they set up a 'show' to places like malls and stuff, and they hand out their flyers and speak on a mic to tell what they're about and people can ask questions from them publicly, and they hand out lolli pops and other bribes .

So, people choose where they go and who they want to hear, and they don't have to be forced to hear about candidates they don't care for, or parties they don't care for. If they want to go to a 'show', they go and find out when their party they like have a public appearance and they go out, listen and ask questions.

I think it's good, I don't want the space that is held in clean with the tax money to be polluted by freaking posters of candidates. That woudl also mean that the one with biggest budget and most money would be dominating and the poor ones and especially the independents would be totally run over every single time, and that the already disgusting party power grab would be even bigger, as they'd be the only ones with chance.

	17-10-2004 05:05									#73
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Why on earth would you be offended by someone asking who you're voting for? Are you that embarrassed of your choice?

Here is another perspective on that, from Croatia. In many formerly communist countries, politics still have the stigma of something that can cost you your job or even your life.

My parents worked in a society where the best (admittedly, not the only) way to advance in any career was to join the party, and criticizing the party could get people jailed or worse.

So there is still some of that "don't speak out and don't expose yourself too loudly, the highest grass is the first to be cut" mentality here.

Furthermore, political parties are sharply divided over issues in our country's history, world war II but also recent history when we had a war. So emotions can be pretty strong.

As a rule, I don't like discussing politics with people who care about it more than I do.

I would never ask someone who they voted for. I would also NOT answer a stranger, even a colleague, who I voted for, even if he asked.

That is strictly personal matter. However my family knows and my friends know (and I know theirs).

And it is acceptable to discuss the choices with them, even mock, but never too seriousely, like in "you're an idiot for voting such".

	17-10-2004 05:08									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I've never ever seen this Even the flyers, I think I have never seen anyone publicly distributing them, they're slipped into your mail box discreetly .

No going door to door asking for votes?

You would be in a for a very big shock if you were to go to Ohio right now. Let me tell ya.

Retail politics is a sight to see. It's extremely important when you have a lot of offices and issues on the ballot. Probably 30 or 40 offices and issues for each voter to vote on in Ohio.

Imran: How many offices did you have to vote for? Were there any tax issues or referendums?

	17-10-2004 05:18									#75
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VetLegion, yeah. Though we didn't have the 'could cost your life' thing in here, but the same mentality of 'the highest grass if the first to be cut' is very true .

This is why we have 7 parties and they all have the same issues and opinions. I mean, you ask from these party members if they'd agree, and they'd say 'NO!' but then again, I'm talking about REAL diversity. I don't want to vote a party that I have fundamental problems with, in here it's all about who has the most realistic budget for C's sake. How interesting is that?

But the tallest grass.. If you want to be 'radical' and suggest something else for a change, you will be ridiculed and laughed at. Our parliament doesnt' have fights they have in some countries, but open disrespect is more than common. When someone speaks, no matter what subject, the opposition or coalition or any individual, they often laugh LOUD to make you look like a fool. Politicians should have tough skins, yes, but this showcases the atmosphere. If you are not with us, you're a joke and we do everything we can to make you look like a fool. The opposition rarely challenges the coalition. They don't want to challenge them unless they are sure to win it and brake the coalition. And then they laugh at each other.

I mean.. look at yourselves in there.. you are laughing to a person who is making a speech, who is just not agreeing with you and you laugh? Why? Is there something funny in it? It means, that they can't really even challenge the view, they just laugh because they don't have any other weapons. It's just one big popularity contest over there and it freaking sucks. Then there are like bigger parties and smaller parties, and they have their traditional coalitions from the past days and still working. That means, that real changes won't happen because they are all using the good brother system. And anyone who tries to break it, is the tallest grass. The situation is so bad IMO, that you need a freaking HUGE party that is rich to ever challenge anyone in there. And for that you need a lot of money and supporters, and a LOT OF MONEY. So it comes back to money again, and the rich parties do rule and will never be out of the parliament, no matter how poorly they would perform. Because they grab that power and hold it, they are more interested in being in power than making changes, and the worst you can do is make UNPOPULAR changes, that makes you the tallest grass. Of course this is the same in every country. But the party power in here is something redicilous already. And there is no diversity.

	17-10-2004 05:22									#76
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DanS, Maybe some go door to door, but I have never seen it or heard about it. Basically I think it's good, I dont' want any intrusions to my privacy in any way. Just like I don't want people to come and sell me vacuum cleaners, I don't want politicians to come to my door to try to pitch me. I want to have the choice where I want to see them. I want to be able to say how much I want to be exposed to something. I dont' want to be forced to it. Not even answering a door and saying get out of here.

Confrontation is something we don't do in here. Even confrontational humour is not done in here. You simply don't do that. We are not extremely social, we don't do chit chat and ask how your day is. If you ring the door bell, you want something. So what is it you want, did someone had an accident? No? Then why are you here, what do you want! No I don't want to hear your best pitch, get out of here, I come to you if I feel like it and you give me your pitch then, get out of my home you politician. Why are you calling me? What do you want? I don't care how your day was what do you want and who are you? Selling? Bye bye. Someone had an accident? NO? Then bye bye.

That's it. Pure and simple.

I mean sure you can do it. But be prepared that it is counter productive and that you will mostly face hostile people.

	17-10-2004 05:25									#77
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Supercitizen is going to have a tough transition.

	17-10-2004 05:27									#78
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DanS, I don't REALLY mind it that much. I mean I like the way it is here. But .. When in Rome..

	17-10-2004 05:36									#79
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and more that I think about it DanS, it really is clear to me. I mean, I have made a lot of comments that the US presidential election debates were a huge joke, because they weren't real debates. However, our candidates.. jeesh.. they don't even do THAT much. You know, it's things like NATO, that is a big issue in here, to join or not to join, well the not to join group is far more bigger though the to join group is gaining a little but not decisevely,... it leads to a situation where BEFORE elections the candidates do not say what their position on this issue is! wtf!? They are just trying to save their butts from making unpopular decisions about their OWN position, which they damn well know or should know, so how do I know who to vote for? They don't put our candidates face to face and put them through hell. Basically we don't know anything about many candidates, because they refuse to say their own position on many IMPORTANT issues. They jsut say they will announce it after elections What a bunch of morons.

But we don't make them run the extra mile. If it was up to me, I'd be whipping them in live tv on every single issue that we feel is important. I'd make them sweat and kiss my ass, I'd make them cry and BASH each other but intelligently.

But then again I wasn't being hypocrite because I didn't say we have it much better debate wise .

	17-10-2004 05:57									#80
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quote: By Alan Abramowitz I just received the following message from a colleague at another university who is totally trustworthy: "I have friend who is a co-chair of the Bush Cheney campaign. Rove believes that Bush needs to have a 4 point lead going into the last weekend to win given the undecideds that will break againt the president."

http://www.emergingdemocraticmajori...ising/index.php

For what it's worth...

	17-10-2004 05:58									#81
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Pekka, I could Finnish politics perhaps be described as somwehat decadent?

The way I percieve it there is no danger of a military coup in Finland, no danger of voting fraud, no danger even in some coalition power pursuing a totaly unpopular policy. Country is in good shape, so no big fixes are needed. So it's just the annual budget left.

You need to invade something to get out of that slumber! See how USA has a vibrant political scene

	17-10-2004 06:06									#82
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quote: Originally posted by DanS No going door to door asking for votes? You would be in a for a very big shock if you were to go to Ohio right now. Let me tell ya. Retail politics is a sight to see. It's extremely important when you have a lot of offices and issues on the ballot. Probably 30 or 40 offices and issues for each voter to vote on in Ohio.

That's a lot. How many pages is the ballot? Do people even know half of the issues before they enter the polling station?

	17-10-2004 06:23									#83
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Don't know how many pages it is in New Jersey. Here in DC, it will probably be two or four pages, but this is a one-party town.

If I were to vote in Ohio, I would vote for ~ 30 offices, 5 local tax issues, and 1 state constitutional amendment regarding banning gay marriage.

Of course, some voters know more candidates out of those 30 offices than others. That's why you have to get your name, face, and issues in front of peoples' faces! The tax and amendment issues are normally pretty well known before entering the voting booth.

Last edited by DanS on 17-10-2004 at 06:36

	17-10-2004 06:40									#84
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VetLegion, yeah I guess that's a pretty accurate assesment. I don't even know how it would be possible to do military coup in here.. I mean, everything is possible I guess but if something could be impossible, then that's one. We don't have a pro army, so loyalty to a leader of any kind would be quite impossible. Let alone arrange the build up secretly, uhh that IS impossible in here.

Yeah I figure we are in good shape. But I also figure we won't be in good shape in say 20 years if we don't start immidiate plans and execute them right now to counter some of the challenges of the future. There are few trends that will make our economy a lot weaker in the future as well as social structure and social security as well. Even if I was the most hardened socialist there was, I couldn't look at this situation and be pleased about the future. Reasons being we will be weaker and not be able to grow firmly in the future as needed. It'll take us back, not forward. This will cost a lot more cuttings in the social security, especially health care and pensions and important stuff like that. Not to even mention about public transportation and other things that are not so important, but essential to justify the high taxes. And the problem in the future is, while these services are being driven down to the gutter, the taxes are not dropping. Basically it means, that we'd still pay the taxes, but we wouldn't get enough in return. This means yes, that even the alcoholics that I don't feel like supporting if they don't want to be supported, that evne they won't be getting the support in the future, and also everyone else, poor, middle class, everyone will be left out of what's left today. So even when looking at it from socialist point of view, it still doesn't work. If the socialism part doesn't work then it doesn't work, it's simple like that.

How to make it work, that's another question, and I strongly feel that the current measures are WAY TOO light and also in the wrong direction. My views are supported by almost all economists and experts in oru country. They have been warning for few years and they are still warning and the trend is starting to show already. Yet nothing realistic has been done to meet the future challenges and demands. I'm not against all taxes. And if taxes are collected, I'd like them to be in health care, yes. But I want that healthcare to be effective and quality service and available.

	17-10-2004 06:44									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Kerry and teh Reagan are not mutually exclusive

Yes, at the height of their importance they were both scary-looking old coots.

	17-10-2004 06:50									#86
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quote: I just received the following message from a colleague at another university who is totally trustworthy:

The claim that discredits the lie.

	17-10-2004 08:10									#87
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Glad I got that over with. Now I can officially ignore the campaigns as I've done my duty. We took Sophie and she got to press the green button that submitted my votes. They were the same machines as were used in 2000, so no differences there.

I wonder: do pollsters conduct polls of people who have already voted by means of some form of "early voting" program?

	17-10-2004 09:44									#88
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Actually, JohnT, I would think that even after you have voted, you would still be interested in checking back every now and then in the news, as you are still interested in seeing the progress of the candidate you voted for.

	17-10-2004 12:03									#90
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I went through quite some elections in this country and have seen a plethora of campaign advertisements on the streets. Mainly posters. Or flyers distributed by the parties. And I have seen a lot of silly things in peoples windows and front gardens. Recently even a Ferrari flag. But I have never -ever- seen a private person advertising for a political party or a candidate on their private property. Not even party members do this. Same goes for people going from door to door. There are a lot of people doing this, be it from insurances, Jehova witnesses or similar nut cases. But never -ever- tried somebody ringing at my door to influence my decision for upcoming elections. If it would happen, I would probably be stunned for a short moment, and then do something very unpleasant with this person. And the party in question would be out for at least the next three elections.