17-10-2004 19:15									#1
	How to get Ecol Eng for free by 2149 Get a bigger avatar today!

Right now, we are running Frontier/Planned at 60-10-30 (econ/psych/labs) netting 6 ec's per turn and getting Ecol Eng in 11 years (breakthrus every 16 years)

If we change to Dem/Planned, and run the sliders to 10-10-80, we'd net -8 ec's per turn and would get ecol Eng in 6 years (breakthrus every 8 years)

So the net loss would be 14 ec's per year for 6 years (84 ec's)

If we could buy Ecol Eng right now for 85 ec's we'd do it in a flash

So.....................

How about approaching Morgan with:

Right now we are researching Ecol Eng, and will have the tech by 2154, and we are sure that this is a tech that you will want.

We can accelerate the getting of it (to 2149, possibly 2148) but at some cost to us (ie, we would need to run deficit financing for the next 6 years, forfeiting some 20 ec's per year - in total - in doing so.

Would Morgan be willing to subsidize our acquiring of this tech - and immediately passing on to you - by annual payments to us for 6 years of 20 ec's in order to permit us to run deficit financing?

They'd essentially be getting Ecol Eng for 120 ec's and we'd get it 5 years earlier - and be 5 years sooner to researching Int Int or Doc Init, which are on our critical path. And it would cost us 124 ( the 14 x 6 plus the 40 to change to Democracy)

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	17-10-2004 19:47									#2
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I have a question: When could we get EcoEng fastest without running Democratic?
(I checked it yesterday and we'd loose 10 minerals to support while only gaining 2 energy to higher efficiency, so currently Democratic wouldn't be very lucrative for us I fear. )

	17-10-2004 20:14									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good point - it's 7 years at 30-10-60, with the ten free minerals retained (and only a -1 energy credit loss)

So that would be 7 years of a 7 per year swing (losing the +6 and substituting the -1)

But we wouldn't sell to Morgan for 50 ec's ( 7 x 7)!!!

So how about :

Right now we are researching Ecol Eng, and will have the tech by 2154, and we are sure that this is a tech that you will want.

We can accelerate the getting of it (to 2149) but at some cost to us (ie, we would need to run deficit financing for the next 7 years)

Would Morgan be willing to subsidize our acquiring of this tech - and immediately passing on to you - by annual payments to us for 7 years of 20 ec's in order to permit us to run deficit financing?

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	17-10-2004 21:33									#4
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I love these ideas, sponsored research
Will this pace of research be constant after we have stolen techs from Zak? Won't it slow down? Anyway, I love the idea, and 7x20 is a good starting point for the negotiations

	17-10-2004 21:41									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oh, good point Snoddasmannen. Tech costs do increase progressively the more techs you already have. So our rate will slow down once we nab something from Zak. I'm sure the formula for this has been solved already though, but have you included them in your calculations, Googlie?

	17-10-2004 21:46									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Will this pace of research be constant after we have stolen techs from Zak? Won't it slow down?

I don't believe that any traded for, stolen or otherwise acquired techs have any effect on the current schedule.

However our next tech to research will certainly be more costly as our numerator in the formula (#ourtechs discovered divided by #totaltechs discovered) increases to give that portion of the formula a value approaching 1.00.

But do we care? We've already established that we aren't going to win this game by outresearching the others, but by guile and cunning

	17-10-2004 21:50									#7
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I see. And on your last point - but of course.

	17-10-2004 21:57									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here, for example, are the comparative costs for 2141, before we got Ind Auto and Ind Base from the Gaians, and those for 2142, after we received them

Identical

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	17-10-2004 22:04									#9
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(in fact, we will possibly get the tech one year sooner, as our tech per turn will increae as we add the 2 new bases labpoint contribution, and as older bases populations grow, putting more workers in the fields and contributing energy

For example, in 2142 we are short by 104 techpoints, and at 10 per, that gives 11 years to go

Next year we will have another 10 in the kitty, so we'll be 94 to go, but might be netting 11 per year (with the population growth), which would be 9 years to go instead of the 10 that we would otherwise expect)

	17-10-2004 22:58									#10
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I love this idea! And I don't see how they could say no to 7X20 ECs. It's such a valuable tech to them because of the increased productivity it gives their crawlers. Not to mention they can start building boreholes! And we could start building boreholes! Go for it!

	18-10-2004 08:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I don't believe that any traded for, stolen or otherwise acquired techs have any effect on the current schedule. However our next tech to research will certainly be more costly as our numerator in the formula (#ourtechs discovered divided by #totaltechs discovered) increases to give that portion of the formula a value approaching 1.00.

Yea. It's something like that.
That's also why you have to do trading after your first breakthrough. Else you get screwed. And you did it all to yourself!

quote: Originally posted by Googlie But do we care? We've already established that we aren't going to win this game by outresearching the others, but by guile and cunning

This is also correct...

	18-10-2004 08:31									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I love this idea! And I don't see how they could say no to 7X20 ECs. It's such a valuable tech to them because of the increased productivity it gives their crawlers. Not to mention they can start building boreholes!

That's too cheap!
Remember that Morgan needs this almost as bad as we do. But he has the $$ to compensate, while we don't.
This is also along Morgan's "builder" path. If he's going for Adaptive Economics, as we surmized, in the other thread (don't ask me which one - there are too many where we talk about the same subject), then this is worth even more to him. As we are doing the work for him.
Then he's just one tech away from the Morgan major technology. No way to let this one slide into his pockets so easily. "pas a nos depends!"

Nope. Nope. Nope.


We have to consider things from here on untill the end of the game. We have to project how these changes will be impacting things into all the turns from here on till whenever. If I had to "price" it on the fly, like right now; then 400 e.c's is where I would start as a base price (!).

If I were playing Morgan. I'd seriously consider why you guys are being so generous...

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Not to mention they can start building boreholes! And we could start building boreholes! Go for it! {I squashed the banana picture}

Forget it.
- 24 former turns are required to dig a borehole.
- You cannot start unless you have the technology in question.
- Look at how many formers we have.
- And the ones we have, are probably farming and/or mining ( ).

It's not feasible at the moment, nor for a while.

Think about like if we had, shard weapons but without fusion reactors. Nice. But you can't afford to build them.
My example is a bad one. But I'm in a little hurry to go on to the next thread, and that's the best I could to at this time. In fact, now that I think about it some more, my analogy is probably more feasible than borehole drilling with what we have at the moment. Cause you can instabuild units - not instadrill boreholes {unless you have a stack of 24 formers}.)

Edit: I did them in italics.

	18-10-2004 08:43									#13
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But, KK you can't look on it as a proposal to sell ecol eng for 140 ec's:

This is really a trade of our Ecological Engineering for their Environmental Economics.

We can do it the long way:

We get EE# 1 in 2153. We deviate to Doctrine Initiative and the MCC or to Intellectual Integrity and the CDF. Around 2200 or so we have all the prereqs we need to go for EE #2 (and if we are building boreholes just for the minerals, then it's expensive - we need energy too)

or:

We can partner with Morgan, and get him to buy/trade Gene Splicing from us, then he changes to Ecol Eng. He finances our fasttracking of it (to 2149), and when we get it we send it to him. He changes then to Env Econ then 2 or 3 years later gets it and sends it to us in turn.

So it's not 140 ec's for Ecol Eng

It's Ecol Eng for Env Econ

	18-10-2004 08:54									#14
	Remove this text

*laugh*

You posted while I was editing.
I was shocked to see that my post wasn't the last one (laugh!).

Well then. If It's EE for EE, were talking more like what I want to hear.
Still, I'm leary. Very, very leary. Morgan benefits much more from double EE than we do.
Or what do you mean by "partner" exactly?

Any ways. If it's in another thread. Just tell me, cause I haven't got through all of them yet. I'm doing them in order they appear on my screen.

	18-10-2004 09:19									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Go here It's the latest thoughts on relations with the 3 human teams

	19-10-2004 23:17									#16
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I suppose this thread is now moot (?).