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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:20
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I thought it preferable to start a new thread for the whole discussion re a Yang or Zac vendetta, a Morgan pact or an Isolationist posture.
So much might hang on this decision that it needs to be fully aired.
Long-term pact with Morgan
This will likely, with hindsight, be regarded as the gamewinner for either ourselves or Morgan
If we take it as deep as I've suggested (to the level-9 techs), then left standing at the end of it will be ourselves, Morgan, and such AI submissives/pactmates or submissive human teams as we allow
After break-up, we will either try to conquer Morgan (a tough task by then) or else, if we have sustained the AI in a submissive role, try for a diplomatic victory (being declared sepreme leader)
The Morgan team might balk at being asked to commit so early (after all, they have only met the Hive and ourselves)
The playing enjoyment of the Angels and the Gaians might be lessened as a result of our joining with Morgan (and especially if we also co-opt Zak and Lal - much as the Hive-Drone alliance so early on decided the result in ACDG-II). Question: Do we care?
Pacting with Zak and possibly Lal as well
We have built our short term strategy on the expectation that we would lead a succession of probes thru Zakland, pilfering techs as we go.
Yet Yang has the tech lead, and both Zak and Lal have been forthcoming in trading techs (after all, we got GeneSplicing, Ethical Calculus and Secrets thru trades with the AI)
So let's discuss whether we should Pact with Zak (but still infiltrate, in case at any time he calls off the pact) and also with Lal (with similar infiltration)
This strategy might call for us to work 4-way research with Morgan as well, feeding Zak techs so that he will always be at the forefront of research. except, when he gets a tech that leads to a Special Project - that he starts - he won't trade it. (But the AI never uses crawlers to rush SP's so we could prolly catch up anyway)
Battling Yang versus battling Zak
This change of focus would lead us into a vendetta with Yang (it may be Zak's price for a pact). is this good or bad?
Consider:
Yang has the current tech lead, and has a tech we badly want - Doc Loyalty. To steal it will almost certainly trigger vendetta
Yang has some of the prime real estate on Planet - the Monsoon Jungle - which will default to the Gaians as they take the fight to the AI
We could talk up a good story if we joined with the Gaians in their fight with Yang, opening that famous "second front"
We'd be less threatening to the other factions (Angels and Gaians - presumably, if Pacted with Morgan, they'd be in our confidence) if we took on - with them - the strongest power rather than the weaker Zak or Lal
It'd be simpler to move overland with armies and probe consorts than ferrying them laboriously over the sea to Zak
Thoughts everyone?
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:20
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Committing to a pact with the Morganites until level 9 is appealing, but it's also very dangerous. We can't, at the current time, be in any way certain it'll pay off, and that we'll be able to contain them. Letting Morgan bloat does not sound like a good idea.
Because of that, a better idea might be to first pick off the AIs (first Yang with the Gaians, then the Uni and the PKs, perhaps with the Gaians as well), and let Morgan grow a bit. When Morgan has grown, after the AIs are gone, we'd have two more than willing humans to take out Morgan with.
The problem with this strat is that after this we'd probably end up facing a Gaian/Angel axis vs. us - we'd have to be sure we could get either one of them to ally with *us*, but all things considered, the Gaians and Angels would both have a better chance against each other than in a singular battle against us.... most troublesome.
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Snoddasmannen
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This is a very difficult decision to make, especially for me since I play with rather slow tech advances and rarely make it past level 6 techs. So I have no idea what level 9 tech wars are like. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful right now.
But anyway, I have some questions.
The Hive have some serious defences, can we make headway through those fortifications? How many rovers would it take? How many would be needed to make Zak vs. Yang submissive?
Will we break the pact before tech level 9 if we have the others nice and submissive before then?
How do human teams typically react in MP-games if they realize they have no fighting chance?
We will need to settle the Hive or Uni issue next turn preferably, right?
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Primus Pilus
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My belief is that Yang is the predominant threat geographically and tech wise for this stage of the game. I have previously stated on several occasions that a policy of Yang containment, coupled with tactical placement of Sea Bases, will prepare our invasion plans once we get Missile Weps. I don't like the idea of a protracted war against Yang with only Impactor.
I support Probe actions against Zak/PK, but we should not launch an attack until we get Cruiser Trannies.
Throw some bones to Lady Dee in her efforts against Yang, but not formal support until we are ready.
50-50 on Morgan Pact. We would obviously crush them in a one-in-one, but a Diplomatic Victory against us is a distinct possibility once we start war operations.
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Zeiter
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I'm beginning to definitely like the idea of pacting with Zak/Lal instead of invading them. Even though we'll have to go into vendetta with Yang, we don't have to go on the offensive until we are ready. Meanwhile, we can probe from Yang even more tech than from Zak. The Gaians might also see this as an act of goodwill, and the other human teams might actually root for us to topple Yang the behemoth (whereas, invading Zak would look more like we are bullying a defenseless neighbor.) A Yang vendetta would also work perfectly with all of the negative propaganda we've been throwing out lately in the Phalanx. In fact, I'm now firmly convinced that this is what we should do.
Edit: I just want to add this: My initial support for a Zak invasion was predicated on the estimation that Yang would probably have plasma armor by the time we could do anything against him, and that Zak would be the better researcher. Because those two assumptions have turned out to be false, I think I'd like to switch to what many others were advocating initially, which is, make our target Yang.
Also, if this is what we decide to do, then we'll probably need to change the production in Vladivostok from Transport to something more useful.
As for the Morgan pact...tough decision. Perhaps we should keep the idea open, but wait just a bit until we finalize anything. We can tell the Morganites that we're deliberating on the prospect, so as to:
1. Feel them out as to how they would feel about it.
2. Dissuade them from running into someone else's arms, so to speak.
Last edited by Zeiter on 18-10-2004 at 03:20
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:20
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As I posted under the 2143 moves thread, Yang is only one commlink away from calling elections and being elected Governor (the vote will be between Yang and Lal). He has a gunfoil out there somewhere, looking.
That means that when he does, everyone gets everyone else's commlinks.
I think that now, with Morgan having the turn and us next, Kassiopeia needs to burn the wires setting up deals and trades. Our tech costs are not going to go up until we have discovered Ecol Eng (and remember, if everyone gets every tech then that #yourtechs/#all techs becomes virtually the same for everyone. It's when one player has a huge tech lead that it becomes crippling vis-a-vis the other teams)
So maybe it's time to send the Gaians the "take it or leave it" on EthCalc (and maybe get both the Prog Psych - if they have it - and Soc Psych for our Doc Flex, and a huge IOU for Ethcalc)
And sound out Morgan on a deep pact, but in the meantime get Biogen and Ind Econ from them for Gene Splicing, Ethcalc and (eventually) Ecol Eng, plus, from them, Env Econ when they get it plus a similar promise to hands off the CDF
As for the Angels, as i said elsewhere i doubt whther they (yet) have HEC, but maybe Doc Flex (now) in exchange for it (when they get it) and Gene Splicing for Doc Loyalty, if they have it or if they feel they can get it from Yang
But in a day or so we'll know better what Zak has to offer.
(My only fear with a Morgan pact is that they are so ................. (is slow and indecisive the phrase?) ....... boring)
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:20
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Working draft to edit:
To the Gaians:
The Junta has just emerged from a major policy meeting and we have decided the following:- We are about to commence a major series of probe operations against the Hive
- This will likely result in the Hive declaring vendetta against us, and if your vendettta with the Hive continues, will see our two factions drawing closer together
- prior to us undertaking this multiple probe operation, the Junta would like to narrow down the likelihood of particular techs being extracted from Hive files, and to this end it seems to us not to make sense for us to probe away technologies which you (or the Data Angels) already have. We (obviously with our infiltration of the Hive) can hazard a guess as to which techs we lack that you and the Hive might have in common, so we would like to explore the possibility of us acquiring them from you prior to the commencement of our operation
- We have already asked if you have Progenitor Psych, and we assume that you have Social Psych. If this is correct, we would like to obtain these two techs from you. We can offer in exchange the technology of Doctrine Flexibility (which we believe you are currently researching) and either Secrets of the Human Brain or a future technology yet to be extracted from the Hive files
As regards Ethical Calculus, the Junta has been considering your request to have us trade to you the technology of Ethical Calculus.
We do realize its importance to the Gaian Union (with its concomitant benefits - the building of Childrens' Creches and changing to a Democratic social engineering choice, which together with running a Planned economy greatly facilitates population growth - especially now that you have the Gene Splicing technology)
For us, too, Ethical Calculus is a key technology, but for different reasons.
If we do decide to make it available to the Gaian Union, it would only be on the following terms, which are not negotiable:- There would be a trade embargo to third parties for a period of fifteen (15) years
- The Gaian Union would undertake not to build the Citizens' Defense Force Special Project upon researching or acquiring Intellectual Integrity
- The Gaian Union will pay an annual "technology licence fee" to the Spartan Federation of 20 ec's for 10 years. (At any time the balance of the 200 ec's price can be paid as a lump sum)
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:20
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How about embargos? These drafts exclude any embargos, but I think some might be in order.
To the Angels, under a new topic in "Trade and Commerce":
quote:
Doctrine: Flexibility and Gene Splicing are the two technologies we wish to offer to you. In exchange we want High Energy Chemistry (assuming you have it or will have it soon), and Doctrine: Loyalty (if you have it; knowing your intelligence abilities, we assume you may be able to acquire it from the Hive). In case you have only one of the two, we can take a suitable amount of credits in place. |
(What'd be suitable? 100? 150?)
To the Morganites, under a new topic in "General" category:
quote:
The Junta has been considering its current situation on the Planet. While our military machine is well-oiled and unparalleled, our efforts to do research and to generate much-needed infrastructure and energy have been fair at best. Therefore, the Junta is considering the possibility of upgrading our Treaty to a Pact of Brotherhood within the next decade or so. The Federation itself is still in debate over the matter, but the officers of the Junta think it might be a good idea to allow the Morganite faction to consider the matter also before any actual proposals are made. |
To the Morganites, under a new topic in "Tech and Research":
quote:
The Junta has decided on a large-scale proposal that should be of interest to Morgan Industries.
From you, we want Biogenetics, Industrial Economics, and Environmental Economics once you have it.
In turn, we offer Gene Splicing, Ethical Calculus, and Ecological Engineering once we are finished researching it. However, regarding Ethical Calculus - you must agree to not build Citizen's Defence Force, which of imperative importance to us. This project brings an effect similar to having a certain base improvement in all bases, while your economy can handle building all of these improvements separately, ours can not. |
I think the trade's pretty lopsided - maybe ask them for ECs to "sponsor" our research on Ecol. Eng.?
To the Gaians, under new topic in "Urgent" category:
quote:
Good members of the Gaian Union. After careful consideration the Junta has decided to sell Ethical Calculus to the Union. In exchange, we desire the technologies Progenitor Psych and Social Psych, to allow us better to understand this ancinent race, and the source of the drone problem that so plagues us. There is, however, an additional term we must ask of you: You must not build the secret project called Citizen's Defence Force, which is allowed by this discovery we have made. It is vital to our factional security. If you can agree to these conditions, EthCalc is yours. |
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:20
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working draft to edit:
To Morgan:
The Junta has just emerged from a major policy review and I have been instructed to sound out the Corporation regarding some concepts that were discussed. These concepts, we feel, if implemented, would have far-reaching consequences impacting life here on Chiron, and while they would inevitably result in our two ideologies battling for ultimate supremacy, they would undoubtedly ensure that it is our ideologies that are cxmpeting, and not those of our rivals.
Your response to these suggestions to follow will to a large extent determine the degree to which we co-operate and implement some of the ideas that the Corporation has tabled for discussion
We would like your opinion regarding:- A binding pact between our factions, to last at least until the completion of research of all level-9 technologies (to refresh your memories these are Matter Compression, Industrial Nanorobotics, The Will to Power and Sentient Resonance)
- During this pact we will undertake co-ordinated research, "leapfrogging" where appropriate and using our combined probe operations in a co-ordinated fashion to maximize efficiency
- we will, together, utilize the strengths of our respective factions (for example, the Corporation is an energy generator and we are a military machine. We can provide defense services (aircraft and ships in your bases) to deter aggression against you while you research and develop clean reactors and fusion and quantum drives. We are an energy-starved faction, so could rely on your funding some of our leapfrog research efforts - and more on this later, should we proceed with this intitiative - and upgrading of units to better weapons and armor
- we will agree which Special Projects we should concentrate on (to the Junta it makes sense that the Federation should concentrate on those Projects that can provide free facilities, while the Corporation focuses on those that boost research and assist population growth and drone control)
- While we would not object to the Corporation entering into commerical pacts with the other factions (as these arrangements do generate significant income to the Corporation) - and likewise the Spartan Federation will from time to time Treaty or Pact with other factions, it will be understood that as far as our two factions are concerned, the Federation and the Corporation are allied until the time comes to say to each other "may the better team win"
- We would expect that after completing research of the level-9 technologies we would both be strong enough to withstand military aggression by the other, and that dominance on Chiron would likely come Economically, Diplomatically or through Transcendence, rather than Militarily. We would prepare for that appropriately.
The Junta will be very interested to receive your reply
In the meantime, while this weighty matter is being pondered by your Board, we suggest that some minor trades could ensue:
We would like to receive from the Corporation the technologies of Biogenetics and Industrial Economics. We would be willing to trade the technologies of Gene Splicing and Ethical Calculus, with the following provisos:- ongoing trading to third parties is embargoed for a period of fifteen (15) years
- The Corporation would undertake not to build the Citizens' Defense Force Special Project upon researching or acquiring Intellectual Integrity
We also have a suggestion to make regarding co-ordinating our two factions' current exploration that would see us both in possession of Ecological Engineering and Environmental Economics within a very few years, but this can be dealt with separately
Last edited by Googlie on 18-10-2004 at 07:11
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:20
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But I think that Morgan needs a reply to their posts in the Embassy. maybe along the lines of:
This is in response to the suggestions made in the Embassy by your Board member thereal_arginine.
(And note that we shall shortly be tabling for your consideration a major policy intitiative that could have far reaching repercussions on both our factions)
re: Researching Doctrine Air Power
While this is a high priority for the Spartan Federation, it is not yet on out critical path. But we believe that it may have a higher priority in the minds of our fellow colonists, the Data Angels and the Gaian Union
re: Jointly financed and operated Probe Teams
We see the Hive as being a more immediate source for needed technologies, and will shortly be mounting a multiple front simultaneous attack on their datalinks (which is one reason we are desirous of obtaining technologies that they have that we know the Corporation to possess. It seems - to us anyway - wasted effort to extract files that duplicate yours). The University - and their masters, the Peacekeepers - are not as advanced technologically speaking as is the Hive.
But we will take your suggestion under advisement (recognizing that it may be overtaken by events after you have ahd the opportunity to consider the initiative we are working on towards you)
Re:Trading High Energy Chemistry
Some time ago the Junta formulated a policy that we would not trade military technologies to third parties we were not pacted with, so, again, this would need to wait until events move further.
re: making other factions' commlinks available
From the founding of our first base, Sparta Command, we adopted a strategy that had both benefits and penalties. The benefit was that we researched Doctrine Flexibility many years ago and have been making contact with other survivors of the Unity debacle. The penalty is that we have been tardy in obtaining Industrial Automation which confers the ability to assemble and deploy a crawler fleet, resulting in our mineral output being less than optimal as well as being unable to rapidly complete Special projects.
This is by way of background to saying that we would like to continue to reap the benefits of our strategy decision - the "middleman role" if you will - for a few more years
Of course, were we pacted, and engaged in energy, technologies and military units' swapping, then it would be in our interests to see your commerce income balloon from treaties and pacts with the other factions.
But that again is for a later decision after immediate events play out.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:20
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working draft to edit:
To the Data Angels:
In continuance of the spirit of openess which you mentioned in your inauguration message in the Embassy, we would like to explore the tech-trading option more fully.
We have, that you lack,- Doctrine Mobility
- Doctrine Flexibility
- Nonlinear Mathematics
- Secrets of the Human Brain
- Ethical Calculus, and
- Gene Splicing
We have some caveats surrounding the trading of one or two of these technologies.
(You, obviously, are aware of the technologies that you have that we lack)
As I said in the general Embassy logs, our intelligence operatives believe that you are currently researching High Energy Chemistry (started in 2141 after you obtained Applied Physics), and if our analysts are indeed correct, we would be most interested in trading for it.
(As the friendship deepens between our two factions we would be pleased to give our reasons for these inferences we have made)
We are also vitally interested in the technology of Doctrine Loyalty. If this is one that you already have - or can acquire through visiting the "friendly Hive supermarket" we would be pleased to trade for it as well.
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KrysiasKrusader
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Commander of Corazon's Own Elite Guard
Apr 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
... So I have no idea what level 9 tech wars are like. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful right now. |
No problem (Disclaimer: The following may cause you to lose sleep.), read on...
They hardly ever happen. And if they do, it's casue one or two people got there ahead of the rest of the pack.
There usually very fast. Knock out blows can range from 1 - 3 turns. If two factions team up on another, then there may very well be no reaction time. This is cause your softened up by one faction, then blown away by the second before your turn has cycled around.
Your looking at; elite/drop/shard/fusion/hovertanks (with gas cannisters) move 4; 8-pulse armor for defensive units (fusion, of course), elite/fusion hovertank probe teams (move 4). Some units may very well be equiped with dissacociative wave ability. The air is filled with aircraft, mostly interceptors for airplanes, and 13x - whatever attack choppers. Self destructing fusion missiles to blow away any CAP that you have out there. Invasion forces can move from one end of the map to the other instantaneously, as mag tube networks have been laid. Naval units are practically non-existent, unless they're IoD's. Your just one technology away from orbital insertions - meaning your safe nowhere (except for maybe a sea base). Planetbusters are built as novelty units, if at all.
There's other things also, but that should give you a good taste of things to look forward to (or not)...
quote:
Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
But anyway, I have some questions. |
Sure. Shoot away.
quote:
Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
The Hive have some serious defences, can we make headway through those fortifications? How many rovers would it take? How many would be needed to make Zak vs. Yang submissive? |
How many flowers will it take for my girlfriend to talk to me again, after we had an argument about her mother?
Your gonna have to stop asking questions which cannot be answered with something else than: That depends...
The short answer is; Yang is controlled by the computer. He will be no problem. It may take a while, but he has no chance (see one or three of my other posts concerning AI opponents in this forum).
quote:
Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Will we break the pact before tech level 9 if we have the others nice and submissive before then? |
That will depend on how much we want to honor our word, and maintain our integrity as elite officers of the Junta.
quote:
Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
How do human teams typically react in MP-games if they realize they have no fighting chance? |
Human teams?
Experienced ones will hope that the opposition has a crisis in real life, and cannot continue the game.
Inexperienced ones will not know this until it's too late.
Human individuals, are another story...
quote:
Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
We will need to settle the Hive or Uni issue next turn preferably, right? |
I dunno. I haven't read all the threads in the forum(s) yet.
Edit: spelling and punctuation
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18-10-2004 00:49
with what comes next. Give them EthCalc for EnvEcon? EcolEng? Huh?!
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