18-10-2004 16:49									#31
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I'm fine with googlie's drafts, I'll probably make some inconsequential changes when posting to make them sound more like me but otherwise they're OK. Am I to assume we have reached a conclusion wrt our messages to the Gaians and the Data Angels, with the Morganites being the only point of contest?

	18-10-2004 18:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Well, one reason is to push them EthCalc so that we can tie their hands so that they won't build CDF.

Why not ask a bunch of credits then? 200 was suggested IIRC. We couild for example use those to build a bunch of probes and steal even more tech than we would get by trading.

	18-10-2004 19:41									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac When we would probe Zakharov, the reason Googlie stated was so that we could get a more worthwhile tech right away. But does that reason still hold when we switch target to Yang and intend to trade peacefully with Zak? As Zeiter said, the only important tech Yang has currently is Doctrine: Loyalty. But is it really that important to justify trading techs to other human factions at a for us unfavourable exchange rate (eg anything above 50c)? After all, we have other research priorities we could pursue before acqiuring Doc:Loy. Doctrine: Initiative comes to mind for example. So I don't understand: what's the problem with stealing the basic techs (Biogen, Soc/ProgPsych) from Yang, even if that means we'd get them and Doc:Loy some time later than if we traded for the basic techs?

Ah - and that's a very valid point.

If Zak were the target - and we wnated to be cosy with him, then we'd prolly have just 1 "slapped wrists" probe after which further probes would likely lead to an (unwanted) vendetta.

But with the target switched to Yang, it's likely that the first probe action would lead to vendetta - which is wehere we're heading anyway - so multiples don'y make any difference

So, Maniac, once again you're right (Sometimes I get lost in the minutiae of the trades that I lose sight of the big picture)

Maybe it's just Morgan we should be dealing with, then, if a duopact is the way we are planning to go

	18-10-2004 20:10									#34
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Hmmm, so are we going to trade with the Angels and Gaians before the Elections? I take it that we're not? Assuming we're going duopact. The majority seems, at a glance, to be favouring that.

	18-10-2004 20:32									#35
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That's my read

(although I still think we could maybe get a "license fee" from the Gaians for Ethical Calculus - 20 or 25 ec's per turn for 10 years - plus their agreement not to build the CDF - with a no trade embargo for those 10 years. they must be desperate for it to begin a pop boom)

(and I'll also take it as a "go" next turn to load the AO probe - en route to Minas Tirith - onto Pegasus and head for Great Collective?)

	18-10-2004 20:36									#36
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And we could do the same with the Angels - no tech trades but "license" Ethical Calculus for the same price with the same restrictions

	18-10-2004 20:36									#37
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I'm going to suggest the Gaians and the Angels the sale of EthCalc. For 25 ecs a year for 10 years or a lump sum, a trade embargo of 10 years, agreement not to build CDF. I'll draft a generic message that can be used for both, just swap the faction name.

	18-10-2004 21:02									#38
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I'll post Googlie's response to the_arginine with slight edits to make it jibe better in the Morganite forum.

Should I put in the same posts our careful pact proposition? E.g. the one phrased by me I wrote last night.

	18-10-2004 21:09									#39
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quote: After careful thought the Junta has decided to sell Ethical Calculus to the Gaian Union. The social choices it provides are, we admit, important to you in terms of population and economical growth. There are three terms, however: - A payment of 250 energy credits split to 10 years of payments, 25 ec a year. The entire sum or a remainder sum (e.g. you've paid us 50 ec over two turns, and can pay 200 on the third) can also be paid in full at any time. - Your pledge to not build Citizen's Defence Force once you discover Intellectual Integrity (which will be a derivative of our intellectual property, Ethical Calculus). This is paramount. - A no-trade restriction to third parties, AI or human, of ten years. What is the opinion of the Gaian Union?

Any sneaky things I could/should add?

	18-10-2004 22:24									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie So much might hang on this decision that it needs to be fully aired.

Yeah. It does, and I'm not quite convinced by it...

quote: Originally posted by Googlie This will likely, with hindsight, be regarded as the gamewinner for either ourselves or Morgan If we take it as deep as I've suggested (to the level-9 techs) ...

Why does it have to go to level 9 techs?
That's pretty deep for a MP game with so many people.
How about till a particular tech? Like PSA Or even AEE?
Then we could see how things have developed in the world, shoud we wish to consider extending the pact.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie After break-up, we will either try to conquer Morgan (a tough task by then) or else, if we have sustained the AI in a submissive role, try for a diplomatic victory (being declared sepreme leader)

For sure it will be tough, if they're playing their cards right. That's why I'm mentioning the above. You really don't want to lock horns with a builder after the late-middle game.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie The playing enjoyment of the Angels and the Gaians might be lessened as a result of our joining with Morgan ...

Did they take into consideration the playing enjoyment of the Morganites and Spartans?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Question: Do we care?

Answer: Not me

	18-10-2004 22:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Ah - and that's a very valid point.

Glad you like it. I sometimes feel bad suggesting something else than what one initially suggested.

quote: Hmmm, so are we going to trade with the Angels and Gaians before the Elections? I take it that we're not?

I'd say to trade them every tech we can trade for a decent price.
Problem is of course:
a) Most likely no one has enough credits to pay for all those juicy techs.
b) Perhaps it's just my impression, but neither does any faction seem willing to disclose what techs they have or are researching, nor do they seem willing to adapt their research to a tech we don't have yet.

	18-10-2004 22:51									#42
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They are probably waiting for the Election so that the market will open up and they can get what they want for as low a price as possible. (apparently time is not an issue.) Can't blame them :|

	19-10-2004 05:34									#43
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Going back to the original faction poll the results were (out of 10) 5 favored a Hybrid style, 4 favored a Momentum style and 1 a Builder style. So I saw that as a mandate for the Junta to consider the type of Morgan deal I suggested in conjunction with some forays against the university

If our target has changed to the Hive, then I feel that we need to get stronger offensively than we currently are.

And I take it that I'm way ahead of our general Junta position as regards how deep we should get with Morgan (of course, as befits the "leader of the Morgan wing of the Junta")

What alternative proposals are being tabled for discussion? (I did see a Morgan pact but to the tech-6 level - Fusion, Orbitals, MMI - that signs off with a best armor of 5 (Photon Wall) and best weapon of 8 (Chaos).

That, to me, has the disadvantage that by that time the other factions will all likely still be in the game and we might - after breaking with Morgan - find ourselves with a 3-front war on our hands

The real question is, I think:

Do we want the fimnal battle for supremacy - however waged - to be us against Morgan or us against the Gaians?

After we have reached concensus on that, the diplomatic path should be easier

	19-10-2004 06:08									#44
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My opinion: I have little experience with longterm PBEM diplomacy, so I'll abstain, or in other words just go with the flow on what everyone else wants.

	20-10-2004 01:21									#45
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Since we've been whining our own share of lack of activity of the Morganites, I decided to finally post a response to the_arginine.

How about their own whine about the treaty commerce bonus income split incurring a loss on them? are they just trying to bluff us?

	20-10-2004 04:15									#46
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I guess they must be running 30-10-60 allocations or so. Which means they could get eg 3 credits and 6 labs (or would they lose some commerce energy due to inefficiency?). Giving 4 credits to us, means they'd get 6 labs for 1 credit. Still lucrative for them of course.

Anyway, they aren't suggesting a change of the commerce division agreement, so there isn't really a problem. Though perhaps we could use this opportunity to propose they trade us Industrial Economics? That's a tech that increases the energy you get from commerce.
(We could then sell IndEcon to Zak and Lal for 25c each - if they want to talk to us at least.)

	20-10-2004 04:51									#47
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Please don't kill me for changing my mind all the time, but with the new information this year, I'm wondering: shouldn't we stick to the original plan after all and attack Zak while leaving Yang in peace?

Last year for all we knew:
1) we could sign a pact with Zakharov if we declared war on Yang.
2) we could trade all sorts of juicy techs with him as our pactmate.

However this year the following has happened:
1) Zak's no longer willing to talk to us: bye bye pact & tech trades.
2) Our first probe attempt already gave us the juicy tech we wanted - no more need to trade with him.
3) We've learned Zak's defences are pathetic: a Blitzkrieg is possible.
4) We'll have Doc:Ini and cruisers in six years, making invasion much easier than before.

So the original reasons why I suggested last year to change plan and probe-rape Yang instead have disappeared.

	20-10-2004 05:34									#48
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And add to that, this year Zak took over the tech lead when he disovered Ecol Eng (he's in his first year of researching Ind Econ)

But even as we prepare the invasion, and continue with probe actions, doesn't it make sense (if he'll talk to us) to trade him stuff so that the techs we steal will be that much more worthwhile?

(I bet if we had Ind Econ he'd talk to us - why don't we do a straight trade with the Angels - Flex for Ind Econ?)

	20-10-2004 07:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (I bet if we had Ind Econ he'd talk to us - why don't we do a straight trade with the Angels - Flex for Ind Econ?)

I see someone is posting this in a few threads.


(I gave a variation in the Angel thread.)