19-10-2004 02:38									#61
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They also make(i'm finding out ), a selection of great video games, without which the gaming world would be culturally poorer.

	19-10-2004 02:42									#62
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you didn't know this earlier? the have many of the biggest gaming comanies in the console world, not to mention two of the three largest gaming platform companies...

and yoko matsugane? not that attractive, at least from that photo.

	19-10-2004 03:04									#63
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Those CANNOT be real

Who cares??

	19-10-2004 03:11									#64
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her face isn't all that attractive, her boobs are too fake, and she looks far too... porn-star ish.

	19-10-2004 03:19									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed you didn't know this earlier? the have many of the biggest gaming comanies in the console world, not to mention two of the three largest gaming platform companies...

not until last week when i got my first japanese console and Zelda - Orcarina of time, i've been impressed
I was a shameless 'Gaijan' (?), only ever owning British and USA computer systems - i can see even just by this one game that Japan has its own unique culture.
So he could use that as an example

	19-10-2004 03:22									#66
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i see... makes sense. japan doesn't have the presence in computer gaming that america does, so if you've never owned a console before...

and it's gaijin.

however, saying a country has a culture after having experienced just one video game is kinda silly...

	19-10-2004 03:36									#67
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as is his friends arguments seems a fair comparison of silly arguments for/against

	19-10-2004 04:17									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil Thanks for the advice everyone, but I'm specifically interested in counter-arguements. I utterly agree that he's speaking bollocks, but I need examples: "Japan is just a poor copy of China..." " What about xxx" You guys fill in the blank

It's been said already. The geographical location of Japan is what tends to set it apart when people look for comparisons, in that it's pretty freaking obvious where the cultural influences come from.

What your friend doesn't seem to grasp is that EVERY ****ING NATION on the planet has been culturally influenced by its neighbors, whether by the sword or trade. Moorish influence in Spain. French in Russia. Greek in Mali (yes, it did.) Mongol in Persia. China in Europe.

And don't think for a minute it was all one-sided. The Japanese re-influenced the Chinese when they altered the original concept, such as in religion (espec zen buddhism) & art. Plus more current marketing policies.

But I also think your friend is pretty far gone and won't see anything valuable about Japan even if you shove it under his nose. You need to get at the underlying issue, assuming you want to dig that deep.

	19-10-2004 04:27									#69
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zen came from china, though...

	19-10-2004 04:28									#70
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quote: But I also think your friend is pretty far gone and won't see anything valuable about Japan even if you shove it under his nose. You need to get at the underlying issue, assuming you want to dig that deep.

probably got dumped by a hypernationalist japanese *****.

	19-10-2004 04:34									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed zen came from china, though...

That'd be the "altered original" thingy.

quote: probably got dumped by a hypernationalist japanese *****.

dunno... I once worked with a guy who wasn't 'all upstairs', and his 2 favorite topics were hockey and 'those damn japanese'. TDJ being the ones we fought aginst in WWII... and this was in 1990. Seeing as he wasn't old enough to have been in Vietnam, let alone WWII, I never grasped his reasoning. For which I am thankful.

	19-10-2004 22:22									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake To teach and learn a Chinese character for a Chinese is no more difficult than to teach and learn a English word for a westerner.

I'm sorry, but that sounds just plain wrong to me.

If it were just as easy, why do Chinese students require years of grinding rote-memorization to become literate?

Being able to pronounce a word you've never seen before is another enormous advantage of the western writing system. However, not having verb tenses truly is a big plus for Chinese grammar.

	19-10-2004 22:24									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed her face isn't all that attractive, her boobs are too fake, and she looks far too... porn-star ish.

I like the 'slutty' look

	19-10-2004 22:47									#74
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She's fugly. And I generally think Asian women are hot.

As for the moron whose bigotry is the subject of this thread, perhaps you should just ask him a simple question:

So what if Japanese culture is all borrowed? Why should I care?

Ultimately we all borrow from each other. As the citizen of a nation that has all but perfected the art of borrowing things from others ( ), I see nothing wrong with it.

-Arrian

	19-10-2004 22:48									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's debatable that a logographic system is superior to a phonetic system. Instead of conveying sounds, it conveys meanings directly. Thus, it's more compact and has a higher information density.

Actually, I think that's not true.

A proficient speaker of English also gets the meaning more or less directly from the appearance of the word, they don't mentally "sound it out". Most of the time, the shape of the word is recognized and processsed directly into meaning without use of phonetic cues, so I think the information density level is about the same.

On the other hand, character-based systems suffer from the serious disadvantage of being divorced from the spoken language. With character-based writing systems, you have to memorize additional unrelated data (i.e. the pronunciation) for each character.

With phonetic languages, the verbal and written languages reinforce each other, instead of being more-or-less unrelated parallel codes.

	19-10-2004 22:56									#76
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye I'm sorry, but that sounds just plain wrong to me. If it were just as easy, why do Chinese students require years of grinding rote-memorization to become literate?

But are't western students required years of studying to learn all these English words? I'd almost guess a fifth grader in China knows a higher percentage of Chinese words then the percentage of English words a fifth grader here knows.

	19-10-2004 23:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Actually, I think that's not true. A proficient speaker of English also gets the meaning more or less directly from the appearance of the word, they don't mentally "sound it out". Most of the time, the shape of the word is recognized and processsed directly into meaning without use of phonetic cues, so I think the information density level is about the same.

Words are, in effect, pictures the same way logocraphic characters are, but they are composed of a set of smaller elements. Efficiency-wise, however, the system I'm writing this in is more efficient, in that I can express any word of the English language with just a bit over twenty different symbols (which fit on an input device like a keyboard) while with thousands of characters it's not quite as simple.

	19-10-2004 23:05									#78
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As I said, Chinese characters are equivalent to English words, not letters. Letters do not have meanings, just as the strokes in Chinese. Word on the other hand, convey meanings. There are thousands Chinese characters, just like there are thousands English words.

And being able to prounce a new word before you don't know it IS a plus for English although it may not mean much if you can pronounce it but still don't know its meaning. There are words in Chinese one can guess the meaning and pronounciation too.

	19-10-2004 23:21									#79
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I see nothing wrong with a culture that emulates some strengths of other cultures.

That is essentially what history of civilizations is about, is it not? Not very many cultures are pure in of themselves.

	19-10-2004 23:27									#80
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And we all know purity leads to regression.

	19-10-2004 23:28									#81
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someone who understands

	20-10-2004 00:35									#82
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explains the brits...

	20-10-2004 00:36									#83
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Japanese culture needs defending?

	20-10-2004 01:14									#84
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What about traditional Japanese theater, Noh and Kabuki and all that?

Re Zen - IIUC the Japanese took the whole Koan thing far beyond what China did.

Note also - per Marc Bloch, author of Feudal Society, Japan had the only genuine feudal system outside Europe. I suspect the whole warrior code thing in Japanese culture is alien to Chinese culture. Which, combined with the Zen thing, gives a very distinctive Samurai culture. See Kabuki and other theater again. And that WAS Japanese culture prior to the opening to the West.

	20-10-2004 19:51									#85
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Japanese culture produced one of the world's first true novels.

Japanese erotic prints are very good indeed.

Japanese art greatly influenced the French Impressionists, Van Gogh, Cezanne and the Post Impressionists, in terms of painting structure and perspective.

Japan can greatly improve imported goods/manufacturing techniques, even if the number of Japanese 'inventions' is relatively small.

	20-10-2004 20:57									#86
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye A proficient speaker of English also gets the meaning more or less directly from the appearance of the word, they don't mentally "sound it out". Most of the time, the shape of the word is recognized and processsed directly into meaning without use of phonetic cues, so I think the information density level is about the same.

That's speed reading.

You do that by taking a phonetic system and hammer it into - you guess it - a ideographic system. Thus proving the advantage of ideographic systems.

If you take a book and compare the English (or French, German, even Japanese) original and the Chinese translation, the Chinese version is always thinner. That means the Chinese representation takes up less space.

quote: Originally posted by mindseye On the other hand, character-based systems suffer from the serious disadvantage of being divorced from the spoken language. With character-based writing systems, you have to memorize additional unrelated data (i.e. the pronunciation) for each character. With phonetic languages, the verbal and written languages reinforce each other, instead of being more-or-less unrelated parallel codes.

That's not that much extra information. In English, you have to remember how to spell a word, how to pronounce it, and the word's meaning(s). In Chinese, you remember how to write a character, how to pronounce it, and its meaning(s).

Granted, in a phonetic system, knowing the spelling of a word helps a lot with the pronounciation, so there's a short cut there.

Though a normal person doesn't need more than 3,000 Chinese characters to be literate. For English, you need to know 10,000 words.

	20-10-2004 20:59									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed sure it might be more compact and have higher information density, but that's like saying apple computers are sleeker, slimmer, and prettier. whoopty big ****in' do, if only a few people can actually use it for any real utility.

1.2 billion Chinese can't be wrong

	20-10-2004 21:04									#88
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quote: Though a normal person doesn't need more than 3,000 Chinese characters to be literate. For English, you need to know 10,000 words.

why does this claim just remind me of the little appendix in the back of 1984 about newspeak?

quote: 1.2 billion Chinese can't be wrong

most computers in the world run microsoft windows. surely they can't be wrong.

	20-10-2004 21:08									#89
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Sounds like someone needs to sneak into that shrine and add "Enola Gay".

That's the Yasukumi Shrine.

A better move would be to add the names of people killed by Japanese troops during WWII. That would be nice.

	20-10-2004 21:10									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed most computers in the world run microsoft windows. surely they can't be wrong.

If people are forced to use Chinese by illegal means, you may have a point.