20-10-2004 20:16									#271
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Heard from the radio this morning about the Christmas tree that the White House is going to have. I was thinking say five hundred years from now the trees are so rare and the human race's entire existence depend on it. Wonder if it would be deemed morally wrong to cut down trees for Christmas celebration. Of course that would not make the moral system of today that accepts the christmas tree tradition as moral and right as invalid, or would it? What about the moral system of the few people who consider it morally wrong to cut down trees for Christmas now?

	20-10-2004 20:27									#272
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Snowflake,

No, it would not validate the system. Just because a moral system is accepted, doesn't mean it is true.

	20-10-2004 20:47									#273
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Now we are getting into the concept of true and false. Is it the same with good and bad, and valid and invalid? IMHO true or false is a factual judgement, and good or bad is a subjective judgement. Science deals with facts, and morality deals with subjectivity.

You can verify facts, but not subjective view points.

	20-10-2004 20:51									#274
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Which logic doesn't require any axioms/assumptions?

The axioms are necessary for turning the concepts into symbols. The concepts themselves contain everything necessary for the truth of the statements. "Green is green" is true because of the concept of "green" and "is". Now, when I type it out here, I need axioms to define the connection between the string of characters and the concepts in my mind.

	20-10-2004 20:52									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Whaleboy, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "moral relativist" would seek to determine whether the taking of a possession of one person by another was immoral by first determining the context of the taking.

Not exactly. I think Whaleboy's use of "context" is misleading and imprecise. What he means by "in a certain context" is "assuming a particular moral system".

	20-10-2004 20:53									#276
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Discordianism

	20-10-2004 20:53									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake Heard from the radio this morning about the Christmas tree that the White House is going to have. I was thinking say five hundred years from now the trees are so rare and the human race's entire existence depend on it. Wonder if it would be deemed morally wrong to cut down trees for Christmas celebration. Of course that would not make the moral system of today that accepts the christmas tree tradition as moral and right as invalid, or would it? What about the moral system of the few people who consider it morally wrong to cut down trees for Christmas now?

It wouldn't be a separate moral system that led to the conclusion that cutting down trees was wrong, it would be application of the first principles of the same moral system to different situations.

	20-10-2004 21:00									#278
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When there are two concurrent contradicting beliefs regarding the same subject (cutting down trees is right, or wrong), you can not say they belong to the same one moral system?

	20-10-2004 21:00									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake Now we are getting into the concept of true and false. Is it the same with good and bad, and valid and invalid? IMHO true or false is a factual judgement, and good or bad is a subjective judgement. Science deals with facts, and morality deals with subjectivity. You can verify facts, but not subjective view points.

I meant true and false as good and bad, but wanted to convey objectivity.

	20-10-2004 21:04									#280
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My wife came from a country where people could not own the land or the trees. Our first Christmas, she wanted to cut down a tree growing in someone's yard. You would be surprised, but it took me quite a while to explain to her why that was "wrong."

	20-10-2004 21:04									#281
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Kuciwalker believes in the natual rights code. He is not a moral relativist. The same goes for everyone else who claims they are a moral relativist. Imran is a conformist. He believes that it is absolutely better to conform to the way the group believes. Even posters like Ramo prefer a certain code. For whatever reason though they want to be called moral relativists. No one can be a moral relativist. It's not even in our nature.

	20-10-2004 21:04									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The concepts themselves contain everything necessary for the truth of the statements.

The concepts don't have any truth value until they've been formalized as or derived from axioms. F'rinstance, the concept "A is not A" would be false under some systems of logic, would be true under others, and would be undefined under the rest. The concept may still have some meaning outside of an axiomatic system, but it won't have a truth value.

	20-10-2004 21:05									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake When there are two concurrent contradicting beliefs regarding the same subject (cutting down trees is right, or wrong), you can not say they belong to the same one moral system?

They wouldn't be concurrent. The underlying moral system is exactly the same. If some people happen to adopt the second principles as the first principles, then they've merely corrupted the moral system in which they claim to believe.

	20-10-2004 21:07									#284
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quote: Kuciwalker believes in the natual rights code. He is not a moral relativists.

His personal moral beliefs have no bearing on whether he thinks there is a moral belief which is more 'valid' or 'true' than any other.

quote: Imran is a conformist. He believes that it is absolutely better to conform to the way the group believes.

Uh huh... continue with your uninformed BS .

	20-10-2004 21:07									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake When there are two concurrent contradicting beliefs regarding the same subject (cutting down trees is right, or wrong), you can not say they belong to the same one moral system?

Both statements can still belong to the same moral system -- most moral systems allow for degrees of indeterminism, since it's usually impractical to require humans to know everything about everything.

	20-10-2004 21:08									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Ned My wife came from a country where people could not own the land or the trees. Our first Christmas, she wanted to cut down a tree growing in someone's yard. You would be surprised, but it took me quite a while to explain to her why that was "wrong."

Well, did you start with telling here that everyone who doesn't believe like you was a communist?

	20-10-2004 21:08									#287
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And, btw, I don't believe in natural rights. I believe people should have certain rights. However, belief in natural rights isn't even a moral belief, it's just wrong it's a simple empirical claim

	20-10-2004 21:10									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Kuciwalker believes in the natual rights code. He is not a moral relativists. His personal moral beliefs have no bearing on whether he thinks there is a moral belief which is more 'valid' or 'true' than any other.

His beliefs don't have any bearing what he thinks? Jesus Christ, just look at what you write for a moment and really think about it.

	20-10-2004 21:12									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Well, did you start with telling here that everyone who doesn't believe like you was a communist?

No, I started with the statement that communism was a lie, that communist were liars, and that communists at times called themselves Liberals in order to advance their agenda by getting into power in democratic countries.

	20-10-2004 21:12									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I believe people should have certain rights.

	20-10-2004 21:13									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker And, btw, I don't believe in natural rights. I believe people should have certain rights. However, belief in natural rights isn't even a moral belief, it's just wrong it's a simple empirical claim

Kuci, by rights, do you mean that people can "own" things?

	20-10-2004 21:13									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious His beliefs don't have any bearing what he thinks? Jesus Christ, just look at what you write for a moment and really think about it.

Just like my personal ice cream flavor preferences have no bearing on whether I can consistently claim that ice cream flavor preference is subjective.

	20-10-2004 21:14									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No, I started with the statement that communism was a lie, that communist were liars, and that communists at times called themselves Liberals in order to advance their agenda by getting into power in democratic countries.

Oh. Ok. When did you tell her that all liberals are communists?

	20-10-2004 21:16									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kuci, by rights, do you mean that people can "own" things?

Rights are things that one can demand from society.

	20-10-2004 21:16									#295
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quote: His beliefs don't have any bearing what he thinks?

Jesus Christ... can you get off your strawman creating horse for just one post? His PERSONAL moral beliefs have no bearing on whether he believes any moral belief is more 'valid' or 'true' than any other. They are simply his PERSONAL moral beliefs and he considers them no better nor worse than anyone else's.

	20-10-2004 21:17									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Just like my personal ice cream flavor preferences have no bearing on whether I can consistently claim that ice cream flavor preference is subjective.

Do you trully not percieve the difference between prefering a flavor of ice cream and believing that people have certain rights?

I don't think so. You have a bad reputation. Especially in this thread. You haven't done anything, but try to bullshit people.

	20-10-2004 21:17									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh. Ok. When did you tell her that all liberals are communists?

I don't think that is true as I think I am a Jack Kennedy liberal but I certainly am not a communist. The problem seems to be that the term liberal has been adopted more and more by people who are not liberals but who are in fact socialists, so much so, that people now associate liberalism with socialist ideas and have no understanding what true liberalism is.

	20-10-2004 21:19									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Do you trully not percieve the difference between prefering a flavor of ice cream and believing that people have certain rights?

Believing that people have rights is an empirical question, not a moral one.

quote: I don't think so. You have a bad reputation. Especially in this thread. You haven't done anything, but try to bullshit people.

	20-10-2004 21:19									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui They are simply his PERSONAL moral beliefs and he considers them no better nor worse than anyone else's.

Why does he assert them then?

	20-10-2004 21:19									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Rights are things that one can demand from society.

Is safety one of those rights?