20-10-2004 09:51									#61
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quote: You began to fall down when trying to export the revolution to those who didn't want it.

Yep, but that has nothing to do with the War of 1812. I wonder why Canadians want to think that the US wanted to conquer Canada in 1812 when the only reason for the invasion was to force the Brits to the table and get our demands met on issues of impressment and the Ohio River valley.

It'd have been abject folly to try to invade Canada without ANY support from New England, which didn't send any states.

Hell, the US got what it wanted from the war. Impressment didn't happen anymore (rare if it did) and the Brits took troops out of the Ohio River valley. The Brits also ended their alliances with Native tribes, who were incited to attack American settlements by the Brits before the war.

	20-10-2004 09:53									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Also, compared to the capital of a country that was also barely 40 years old? And a capital that was less than 15 years old? Maybe if you burned down Philadelphia that would be impressive, but Washington D.C.? Pshaw!

I understand Americans hating Washington and all that, but really, it's gotta be a bit more important than a fur trading post.

Oh, and I'll see your York and raise you a Detroit.

http://teachpol.tcnj.edu/amer_pol_hist/fi/0000006c.htm

	20-10-2004 09:56									#63
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quote: I understand Americans hating Washington and all that, but really, it's gotta be a bit more important than a fur trading post.

It was a pseudo city, with hardly any civilians. What do you think an entirely planned government city would look like less than 15 years after its founding.

I bet York had more people in 1813 than Washington did in 1814.

	20-10-2004 09:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Lacking a standing army and a strong navy the US concluded that the only way to fight the war would be to send a number of state militias into canada to fight the brits there. The militias did a really piss poor job of it and the british forces stationed in canada actually managed to repel the militias and pursue them over the border into the US.

The US had an army of 35,000 troops vs 5,000 British regulars in Canada at the beginning of the war.

The US army's first invasion of Canada occurs in 1812. The Yanks invade and then retreat without a fight. Sir Issac Brock with 400 regulars, milita and Indians trick US General Hull into surrendering att Detroit, again without a fight.

Your regular standing army was useless.

	20-10-2004 10:00									#65
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About the regular army:

quote: The paper strength of the army was 35,000, but the service was voluntary and unpopular, and there was an almost total lack of trained and experienced officers. The available strength was a bare third of the nominal. The militia, called in to aid the regulars, proved untrustworthy. They objected to serving outside their home states, were not amenable to discipline, and behaved as a rule very badly in the presence of the enemy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

	20-10-2004 10:02									#66
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I read over the Letters posted at the Guardian's website. I thought they were particularly condescending and agressive. It seemed to me the writers were more interested in having an outlet to express their rage over Bush then writing a thoughtful letter giving the voters another perspective.

It was particularly amusing the Brit who wanted the person to vote for Kerry because of his stance on abortion. Not a smart diea when campaigning in Ohio.

	20-10-2004 10:05									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I read over the Letters posted at the Guardian's website. I thought they were particularly condescending and agressive. It seemed to me the writers were more interested in having an outlet to express their rage over Bush then writing a thoughtful letter giving the voters another perspective. It was particularly amusing the Brit who wanted the person to vote for Kerry because of his stance on abortion. Not a smart diea when campaigning in Ohio.

How dare you threadjack a war of 1812 thread.

	20-10-2004 10:07									#68
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York was an important city in 1812, particularly from a military stand point.

Yes, the Americans won the battle, mainly by having twice as many troops as the Canadian defenders.

But it was a pyrrhic victory. The US lost their commander and ended up withdrawing after burning and looting York.

Of course that was typical of the way the Americans fought - burning and looting.

They burned the town of Niagara-on-the-lake and surrounding villages in the middle of winter leaving hundreds of families to die in the cold.


As a result of these tactics, the Brits responded by burning Washington.

	20-10-2004 10:12									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I understand Americans hating Washington and all that, but really, it's gotta be a bit more important than a fur trading post. It was a pseudo city, with hardly any civilians. What do you think an entirely planned government city would look like less than 15 years after its founding. I bet York had more people in 1813 than Washington did in 1814.

I'll bet that the King of England didn't bat an eyelash as Americans approached York, whereas your president scurried like a rat escaping a fire from Washington.

	20-10-2004 10:14									#70
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'll bet that the King of England didn't bat an eyelash as Americans approached York, whereas your president scurried like a rat escaping a fire from Washington.

Because the King of England couldn't give a rats ass about his Canadian subjects.

	20-10-2004 10:17									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Because the King of England couldn't give a rats ass about his Canadian subjects.

That's why he sent his navy and army to help defend us and thrash you, right?

	20-10-2004 10:19									#72
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's why he sent his navy and army to help defend us and thrash you, right?

For his pride, not your lives

	20-10-2004 10:21									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You began to fall down when trying to export the revolution to those who didn't want it. Yep, but that has nothing to do with the War of 1812. I wonder why Canadians want to think that the US wanted to conquer Canada in 1812 when the only reason for the invasion was to force the Brits to the table and get our demands met on issues of impressment and the Ohio River valley.

That's not what was said at the time.

For the people of Canada, the War of 1812 was clearly about fighting for their freedoms and fighting against a barbaric enemy.

When US General Hull invaded Upper Canada in July 1812, he issued this proclamation:

"In the name of my Country and by the authority of my Government I promise you protection to your persons, property and rights, Remain at your homes, Pursue your peaceful and customary avocations. Raise not your hands against your brethern, many of your fathers fought for the freedom & Independence we now enjoy Being children therefore of the same family with us, and heirs to the same Heritage, the arrival of an army of Friends must be hailed by you with a cordial welcome, You will be emancipated from Tyranny and oppression and restored to the dignified status of freemen… If contrary to your own interest & the just expectation of my country, you should take part in the approaching contest, you will be considered and treated as enemies and the horrors, and calamities, of war will Stalk before you.

If the barbarous and Savage policy of Great Britain be pursued, and the savages are let loose to murder our Citizens and butcher our women and children, this war, will be a war of extermination.

The first stroke with the Tomahawk the first attempt with the Scalping Knife will be the Signal for one indiscriminate sense of desolation, No white man found fighting by the Side of an Indian will be taken prisoner Instant destruction will be his Lot…

I doubt not your courage and firmness; I will not doubt your attachment to Liberty. If you tender your services voluntarily they will be accepted readily.

The United States offers you Peace, Liberty, and Security your choice lies between these, & War, Slavery, and destruction, Choose then, but choose wisely; and may he who knows the justice of our cause, and who holds in his hand the fate of Nations, guide you to a result the most compatible, with your rights and interests, your peace and prosperity."

http://www.generalbrock.com/level2/level3/hullproc.htm

	20-10-2004 10:24									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber For his pride, not your lives

To bring the thread full circle...

about as much as Bush cares about the average grunt in Iraq.

	20-10-2004 10:24									#75
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither To bring the thread full circle... about as much as Bush cares about the average grunt in Iraq.

who is questioning that?

edit: and the thread is about brits sticking their noses in an election that they shouldn't. How would you like if American money and influience was used to try to influience a Candian election. I would hope that you would be pissed about it.

	20-10-2004 10:25									#76
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quote: When US General Hull invaded Upper Canada in July 1812, he issued this proclamation:

That's nice, but seeing how the Brits incited native tribes to attack American settlements since the end of the Revolutionary War, justified. A majority of the major land battles in the war involved the Americans against native tribes.

Emancipation doesn't mean conquest. We may promise the same things in Iraq, it doesn't mean we are there to conquer them.

	20-10-2004 10:31									#77
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's why he sent his navy and army to help defend us and thrash you, right?

He just wanted to keep the beaver coming.

	20-10-2004 10:54									#78
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Actually, British North America (Canada) was a financial liability ever after the Revolution. It was maintained more for prestige than anything else. It required far more British attention to defend than it was worth, given that they never intended to reconquer the US colonies.

At the end of the Civil War, with the enlarged Union Army finding itself unoccupied, the cost of defending the Canadas reached a breaking point. Thus the British government gave us a firm push to propel us from the nest to forestall the necessity of fighting yet another war over the Great Lakes and beaver pelts.

From their POV it worked. They continued to enjoy the benefits of Canada as part of the Empire while they suffered little or no cost to defend us. It isn't a coincidence that Australia and New Zealand followed Canada to independence on a similar model not long after.

	20-10-2004 11:02									#79
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, British North America (Canada) was a financial liability ever after the Revolution. It was maintained more for prestige than anything else. It required far more British attention to defend than it was worth, given that they never intended to reconquer the US colonies. At the end of the Civil War, with the enlarged Union Army finding itself unoccupied, the cost of defending the Canadas reached a breaking point. Thus the British government gave us a firm push to propel us from the nest to forestall the necessity of fighting yet another war over the Great Lakes and beaver pelts. From their POV it worked. They continued to enjoy the benefits of Canada as part of the Empire while they suffered little or no cost to defend us. It isn't a coincidence that Australia and New Zealand followed Canada to independence on a similar model not long after.

Too bad the foresight was lacking to do the same for the 13 colonies in 1700's. The US-British alliance could have gotten off to a much earlier start.

	20-10-2004 11:05									#80
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They needed to be convinced.

	20-10-2004 11:05									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why are rightwingers so rude?

Everyone hates spammers.

	20-10-2004 11:06									#82
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They needed to be convinced.

Incidently, you guys needed to be convinced that not everyone agreed with you, and that you could get your butts handed to you. You're welcome.

	20-10-2004 11:08									#83
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That's all right. If you enjoy Liberal domination, it's no skin off our nose.

	20-10-2004 11:12									#84
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I guess you're right.

I'll just suffer up here with my universal healthcare and budget surpluses. Being Liberal can sure be a *****.

	20-10-2004 11:13									#85
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Had your ride in a Sea King yet?

	20-10-2004 11:14									#86
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Nope. You been to Vietnam or Iraq as part of the in uniform tour?

	20-10-2004 11:20									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: When US General Hull invaded Upper Canada in July 1812, he issued this proclamation: That's nice, but seeing how the Brits incited native tribes to attack American settlements since the end of the Revolutionary War, justified.

Bull, the natives were incited by Americans invading their land west of the Ohio.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Emancipation doesn't mean conquest. We may promise the same things in Iraq, it doesn't mean we are there to conquer them.

And 200 years later, the American perspective remains distorted. The people living in Canada in 1812 were largely loyalists who opposed the colonial rebels. They wanted nothing to do with the US.

	20-10-2004 11:20									#88
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Nope but I'm not really interested in trolling Canadians about thier inferiority either. The stupidity of the Guardian is much more interesting.

	20-10-2004 11:22									#89
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Incidently, you guys needed to be convinced that not everyone agreed with you, and that you could get your butts handed to you. You're welcome.

It didn't work at all! There was a deeply ingrained misconception immediately following the war and up to the present that the US won the war due to the outcome of the (irrelevant to the outcome of the war) battle of new orleans. Electing the general from said battle as president of the US probably served to magnify the influence of this perception.

	20-10-2004 11:24									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Nope but I'm not really interested in trolling Canadians about thier inferiority either. The stupidity of the Guardian is much more interesting.

Just remember who's the ***** in this relationship and then we can get on with laughing at the Guardian.