21-10-2004 23:29									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Solver That's something I still can't understand, despite having tried to. Deathmatch just never seemed fun to me. Maybe because deaths happen often there, you don't go alive for 10 minutes, no feeling of becoming better and stronger. I've played through single-player campaigns of some astounding games numerous times, but deathmatch...

With small numbers of skilled players deathmatch is awesome. I played Quake3 for over a year without getting bored. Much more longevity than SP.

	22-10-2004 00:30									#32
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I wonder whether my inability to get into DM comes from my lower-than-average skills at it. Maybe it would seem fun to me if I was among the skilled players, I don't know. Then again, skilled players become skilled with practice, and DM didn't seem fun enough to me to play for many hours.

On the contrary, in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory, I am a pretty skilled player (not the uber-top-player, but definitely skilled), and I enjoy that game a lot due to its... non-DM nature.

	22-10-2004 04:41									#33
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DM is nice for those few times when you don't have a lot of time but like to frag some headz. Otherwise ctf is most likely the best game out there.

About halflife AI: I only noticed they ducked when I fired at them, but flanking manoeuvres? Eh.. I just charged in and killed those *****es before they had a chance to do anything . They just gave the impression of flanking because of the taunts and speech they cried out when heavily wounded etc..

	22-10-2004 05:20									#34
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Is Halo regaurded as an FPS in this case?

What else would it be? A TBS?

	22-10-2004 10:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Why bother with any other game? Because Quake 2 sucked. And death matches are about as boring as playing through the single player game repeatadly. That's why people play the Half-Life mods isntead.

You only say this because you suck at shooters

	22-10-2004 10:26									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Solver On the contrary, in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory, I am a pretty skilled player (not the uber-top-player, but definitely skilled), and I enjoy that game a lot due to its... non-DM nature.

Best multiplayer shooter ever

And it's free.

	22-10-2004 14:34									#37
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike Best multiplayer shooter ever And it's free.

Ahh, you play it too, nice .

Really has a number of advantages. Is fast paced as most shooters, yet you don't die every 30 seconds there. Is team-based, which is a must for me, and is objective-based. Also, has different classes for variety, is free, and is very fun indeed.

	22-10-2004 20:37									#38
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I like team based stuff as well as DM. A few years back all I played was Team Fortress on a LAN, which was great fun.

Many of the comments about DM here are misleading though. If you jump on a public server full to the max with people it's just a mess, and I can understand why people would find it too frantic and not fun.

Get skilled, play DM on private servers with a limited number of clan members and it rules. It's VERY tactical, despite what some people have said.

	22-10-2004 21:27									#39
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Yep, but it's the get skilled part that requires playing through public servers, and you don't exactly go into private servers at once. Though I believe that skilled player DM is tactical... still not as much as in team-based shooters, I assume.

Another reason why I like Enemy Territory. Even on public servers, people display teamwork, more or less coordination and tactical skills. On private servers (I have access to two), it's even more awesome.

	23-10-2004 02:55									#40
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The one thing you forgot to mention about Wolfenstein: ET is that your character will get upgrades based on your performance. Engineers go faster then get flack jackets, medics get better healing and then adrenaline, and the soldiers end up being able to carry both a rocket launcher and a machine gun... good god that's mean when you hook it up.

I've found that when I play, 98% of the time I have the highest battle sense of any player in the match. It's great when that hits level 4 because then you can see the landmines without having to rely on a covert ops to spot them for you. Maxing light weapons is sweet, too. Dual pistols!

	23-10-2004 04:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Maybe because deaths happen often there, you don't go alive for 10 minutes, no feeling of becoming better and stronger.

I think it's because you suck, heh. You have a definate sense of power in deathmatch. DM is all about the down and the up player, which is all relative power. The down player is going to get spawn fragged a lot because he is not in control of the level. The up player will be running the items and killing the down player. Your goal is to become the up player and then frag the down player more than he does to you when he is the up player. If you are much more skilled than the down player he will never become the up player, so he will get spawn fragged over and over again. This is how DM works in all Quake games.

quote: Yep, but it's the get skilled part that requires playing through public servers, and you don't exactly go into private servers at once.

Actually you should do that if you want to get skilled. I only become skilled after I started playing with other skilled players. If you are a nice guy and persistent someone will eventually mentor you I bet. I've helped many players come to understand deathmatch better over my years of playing.

quote: Though I believe that skilled player DM is tactical... still not as much as in team-based shooters, I assume.

I'd say DM is more tactical/strategic for a simple reason in DM you usually have resources to control where as most tactical shooters you just play rounds or until someone is dead(correct me if this is wrong). I am not famliar with ET but my understanding is it's like kinda like TF. Most people don't understand Quake or UT because it's fairly abstract compared to the single player aspects. It's a totally different game and it doesn't help that many times DM is super fast so it seems chaotic(though it's not if played correctly meaning no FFA w/ 100 people on a small map).

	23-10-2004 13:51									#42
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Nicely put.

	23-10-2004 16:47									#43
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quote: The one thing you forgot to mention about Wolfenstein: ET is that your character will get upgrades based on your performance. Engineers go faster then get flack jackets, medics get better healing and then adrenaline, and the soldiers end up being able to carry both a rocket launcher and a machine gun... good god that's mean when you hook it up. I've found that when I play, 98% of the time I have the highest battle sense of any player in the match. It's great when that hits level 4 because then you can see the landmines without having to rely on a covert ops to spot them for you. Maxing light weapons is sweet, too. Dual pistols!

Many servers make those levels harder to come by. I typically play a Medic... and I'm happy if I can get to level 3 medic in one map. That means I'm having a good day.

Oh, had some fun last night - played on Goldrush, 1v1. I was Axis, of course. Managed to hold it off for 30 minutes, too - was very different from the usual hectic fire all around in ET, and quite fun.

quote: I think it's because you suck, heh. You have a definate sense of power in deathmatch. DM is all about the down and the up player, which is all relative power. The down player is going to get spawn fragged a lot because he is not in control of the level. The up player will be running the items and killing the down player. Your goal is to become the up player and then frag the down player more than he does to you when he is the up player. If you are much more skilled than the down player he will never become the up player, so he will get spawn fragged over and over again. This is how DM works in all Quake games.

So basically for someone who decides to first try out DM in 2002 and joins a random server, it's not going to be any fun, because he will constantly get raped. I feel DM is pretty uneven that way, probably some of the hardest game types for new players, unless they specifically find a newbie server.


Though it's very interesting to hear a perspective on DM from DM players. It's nice to hear that it only seems chaotic to inexperienced players like me, and can be very different .

	24-10-2004 10:21									#44
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Solver: have you ever watched any demos of top clans or duelers? You can see through their pov(point of view) and see all the tactics and strategy going on. It might be a bit hard to follow large games like 4v4 tdm or ctf but I would think you would probably understand the basics in duels fairly fast by watching a few demos. Demos are a good tool to learn if you are new to DM. I actually enjoy a good demo as much as a good sports match.

quote: So basically for someone who decides to first try out DM in 2002 and joins a random server, it's not going to be any fun, because he will constantly get raped.

Yep, if he is totally outclassed which happens a lot. DM is very skillful IMO which is why you usually see one guy owning an entire FFA server or 50-0 results in a 1v1. You'd think DM would be bad at higher levels of play with it's UP/DOWN dynamic but you get lots of really close games.

I learned the basics of DM from FFA. I moved up to clan play once I could regularly dominate FFA servers but if I wanted to get into DM today I'd skip FFA entirely.

quote: I feel DM is pretty uneven that way, probably some of the hardest game types for new players, unless they specifically find a newbie server.

Yeah, it's hard for new players I agree. There is really no such thing as a newbie server though. Most servers are public and there is no stopping the best players from playing where you are. If you can beat games like Doom 2 on ultra violence you should be able to play DM. It's just a matter if you want to or not and can stand up to losing a million times before you start to win(which is psychologically hard for some people).

There are leagues for lesser skilled players but you'd need to join a clan to play in those. If you are serious about learning it's much easier nowadays than way back when DM was new. All the information is in the open now and with so many demos to watch it's much easier to learn.

	24-10-2004 13:54									#45
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There are tonnes of servers (for Quake 3 even today, over 5 years since release) you can learn on, that will have plenty of newer players. You do have to have the mentality whereby initially getting stuffed makes you want to come back and win, not say "oh this is too hard" and quit.

Try to pick servers that are not overpopulated, but have enough players. Remember the less players there are the more tactical and skillful it is and the more the weaker player will get pasted. However too many players and it's chaos, which is fun sometimes but not for too long.

	24-10-2004 17:10									#46
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quote: Solver: have you ever watched any demos of top clans or duelers? You can see through their pov(point of view) and see all the tactics and strategy going on. It might be a bit hard to follow large games like 4v4 tdm or ctf but I would think you would probably understand the basics in duels fairly fast by watching a few demos. Demos are a good tool to learn if you are new to DM. I actually enjoy a good demo as much as a good sports match.

I'm a lazy git, never took part in DM much, not by playing or watching demos. I do also enjoy demos as much as a sports match - for instance, good games (live, if I can catch them) of Enemy Territory.

quote: If you can beat games like Doom 2 on ultra violence you should be able to play DM. It's just a matter if you want to or not and can stand up to losing a million times before you start to win(which is psychologically hard for some people).

Nope . I'm good at Doom 2. Pretty good. Beating it on UV doesn't seem a challenge. Done that many times, and done possibly harder things. Doom 2 is much different from any other game though - there's no vertical aim, only horizontal. So that's one less thing to worry about, AND I have always played Doom2 with my keyboard only, whereas all vertical-aim games require you to use the mouse.

	25-10-2004 15:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Is Halo regaurded as an FPS in this case? What else would it be? A TBS?

An FPA?? (FirstPersonAdventure)

Well what i was meaning is that compared to Quake/UnrealT etc , i wasn't sure if a game like Halo might be considered 'lite' in comparison?

I just got Metroid Prime now is this an FPS or an FPA

DM is fun - but i always used to get killed by 'invinceble' characters(i worked out it was the moderator chars) as i used to hang out in delta-force and snipe the hell out of eveyone(being a newbie i didn't know this was bad ).

	25-10-2004 23:03									#48
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Halo is FPS for sure. The clues are in the shooting and the first person perspective.

	25-10-2004 23:35									#49
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I could give half a **** about the story. One of the worst FPS's ever was Deus Ex... and it prided itself on having a complex story.

Counter-Strike has no story whatsoever, and it is the best FPS out there. (Counter-Strike:Source now...)

Multiplayer fun is what I look for in a FPS. Stories are dumb. If I want a story, I'll read a book. I'd rather have a single player like Battlefield 1942, that prepares you for MP.

	25-10-2004 23:40									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I could give half a **** about the story. One of the worst FPS's ever was Deus Ex... and it prided itself on having a complex story.

Taxi for 1?

	26-10-2004 00:33									#51
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I find it that shooters with a story make for a much more involving SP campaign. I'm a single-player person in general. I prefer Civ single-player, I prefer shooters to have a strong single-player campaign and will download SP maps. RTS I play MP more than SP, but only because the AI is usually incredibly poor, and it becomes a complete pushover shortly. RoN had a better AI, so I went for SP too.

I can't see myself playing a non-free MP-only game. Counter-Stike or Enemy Territory, yeah. But for games that aren't free, I want a good SP.

	26-10-2004 00:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I could give half a **** about the story. One of the worst FPS's ever was Deus Ex... and it prided itself on having a complex story. Counter-Strike has no story whatsoever, and it is the best FPS out there. (Counter-Strike:Source now...) Multiplayer fun is what I look for in a FPS. Stories are dumb. If I want a story, I'll read a book. I'd rather have a single player like Battlefield 1942, that prepares you for MP.

Most people except CS players consider CS to be a suckage game
Played it today vs some bots on someone else's computer, and my opinion is still equal to my opinion 5 years ago: it suckz ballz

	26-10-2004 00:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor An FPA?? (FirstPersonAdventure) Well what i was meaning is that compared to Quake/UnrealT etc , i wasn't sure if a game like Halo might be considered 'lite' in comparison?

How so?

quote: I just got Metroid Prime now is this an FPS or an FPA

Metroid Prime has no competitive MP AFAIK, and the 3D incarnation of it is just that, a 3D version of what was a 2D game. Metroid Prime plays more like Zelda than like Halo.

	26-10-2004 00:46									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Most people except CS players consider CS to be a suckage game

you mean dumbass noobs who suck at it?

quote: Played it today vs some bots on someone else's computer, and my opinion is still equal to my opinion 5 years ago: it suckz ballz

bots are stupid, throw rocks at them. I don't need to make the case for CS being the best FPS. Just judge by the popularity of the game and the loyalty of its fanbase. It is by far the most played online FPS. And considering it's roots (a mod created by some guys without developer's help), it's done quite well.

	26-10-2004 10:58									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Most people except CS players consider CS to be a suckage game Played it today vs some bots on someone else's computer, and my opinion is still equal to my opinion 5 years ago: it suckz ballz

Back when the mod was just released it was actually fun, but then they went to v1.0 (IIRC) and destroyed the 'fun' part of the game, while making the boring parts even more boring

	26-10-2004 16:12									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by child of Thor An FPA?? (FirstPersonAdventure) Well what i was meaning is that compared to Quake/UnrealT etc , i wasn't sure if a game like Halo might be considered 'lite' in comparison? How so? quote: I just got Metroid Prime now is this an FPS or an FPA Metroid Prime has no competitive MP AFAIK, and the 3D incarnation of it is just that, a 3D version of what was a 2D game. Metroid Prime plays more like Zelda than like Halo.

ref Halo - just that a couple of friends i know who have grown up on FPS since Doom(i was a TBS player), laughed when i told them i'd been practising on Halo. I like Halo - but i got the impression amongst the hard core FPS player it wasn't in the major leagues? Anyway as a non-expert FPS player i might have the wrong end of the stick?

And yeah i'm finding MetroidPrime slightly different to a regular FPS game - it does pay tribute to its 2D past, and is kind of interesting for it - but yes it doesn't have a competitive MP mode.
Im finding it also maybe the most complex FPS i've played - in that it has lots of map screens/gadgets/powerups etc - the game is only slightly more complicated than say Halo to control, but its early days for me in the game so maybe i'll just get used to it soon with a bit more playing.

	26-10-2004 22:34									#57
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Bots may be stupid but that was not my point. I simply dislike the gameplay

	27-10-2004 05:51									#58
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor ref Halo - just that a couple of friends i know who have grown up on FPS since Doom(i was a TBS player), laughed when i told them i'd been practising on Halo. I like Halo - but i got the impression amongst the hard core FPS player it wasn't in the major leagues? Anyway as a non-expert FPS player i might have the wrong end of the stick?

FPS works best on PCs, and beause Halo is an XBox game, they bash it.

Any popular multiplayer game will have people with absolutely sick abilities. It's impossible to call one multiplayer game "harder" than another one, because you're competing against someone who has to face the same difficulties.

In Halo, the players move slower (making them easier to shoot) but it's harder to aim because of the controls. You also can take a lot more hits than in other games.

That neither makes it harder nor easier.

	27-10-2004 06:22									#59
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quote: Back when the mod was just released it was actually fun, but then they went to v1.0 (IIRC) and destroyed the 'fun' part of the game, while making the boring parts even more boring

If you're talking about disabling bunnyhopping then I disagree.

If you're talking about some of the new maps I agree. They looked nice but they play like absolute toss, far too many places to hide, which encouraged VERY slow play.

	27-10-2004 12:31									#60
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor ref Halo - just that a couple of friends i know who have grown up on FPS since Doom(i was a TBS player), laughed when i told them i'd been practising on Halo. I like Halo - but i got the impression amongst the hard core FPS player it wasn't in the major leagues? Anyway as a non-expert FPS player i might have the wrong end of the stick?

I haven't played Halo so what I am going to write here is from other things I have read. Basically my understand is it sucks for competitive multiplayer because...

1. the netcode sucks compared to say Counter-Strike(QW based netcode baby!), Quake or Unreal games.

2. bugs, balance, maps, etc.

3. it's not quake

Number one is probably the biggest reason. I wish all FPS had netcode as good as QW(or at least Q3). There are actually leagues in QW or Q3 where Europeans play with Americans because 100ms is playable in Quake(though there will be lots of whining).

quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Any popular multiplayer game will have people with absolutely sick abilities. It's impossible to call one multiplayer game "harder" than another one, because you're competing against someone who has to face the same difficulties.

There is some truth to that but surely chess is a harder game than checkers? Maybe we could play a guessing game. There is 1 choice A, what is your guess? You have to pick A and the player who guesses first always wins. Surely that is not as hard as a guessing game involving choices A and B. That sounds like a dumb example but it has a real point.

Games are not equal even if you are playing versus a human. This is one reason many diss Counter-Strike IIRC because hits are not totally based on skill but also random chance. Generally the more complex a game is, the harder it is. That's not to say complexity is necessarily good or automatically makes it harder but well done complexity adds much depth.

quote: In Halo, the players move slower (making them easier to shoot) but it's harder to aim because of the controls. You also can take a lot more hits than in other games. That neither makes it harder nor easier.

I've never played Halo but are you actually making the argument bad controls and slow movement is the equivalent to good controls and fast movement in regards to aiming difficulty?

Do you like Halo a lot(maybe even a fanboy?) and not so much other FPS games?