20-10-2004 16:51									#1
	Complexity in FPS games Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Can someone explain what's up with all the people who insist on having complexity in FPS games? With the release of Doom3, its critics did some criticism that I found simply unbelievable. They said Doom3 has weaknesses such as lack of alternative firemodes for weapons and linearity of levels.

What's up with that? I thought that linear levels were a blessing... and even though you could only go in one way, you never felt like that, and the levels were designed diversly. What do people want nowadays? Do they want puzzle-oriented levels such as some of those in Half-Life (though I should mention that the majority of HL fans consider those levels to be the worst, and the best levels the ones with intense fights)? Or what do they want, Morrowind-style non-linearity? Nothing I hate as much in FPS as getting lost somewhere with nothing to shoot.

Shooter games are that, shooters. They should provide monsters for you to shoot. If I want a game to run around, jump and pull levers, I'll play Tomb Raider.

Now, Half-Life 2... yes, it will be different from Doom3 in many ways, yet, apparently, it will be a classic shooter. With much to kill - yet a classic Half-Life game, with a good and well-told plotline. I expect it to be very succesfull though...

Can someone tell me what are people looking for in a FPS game now? Why isn't lots of monsters to shoot in a nice environment enough?

	20-10-2004 19:05									#2
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I defently don't want just another shooter game. I prefer fps games to not only have a good story, but also different ways to reach the ending(s). To be able to have a choice of where to go next; Should I go to the right or to the left? Both ways leads to the same place, but you may encounter different enemies/goodies
And I would defently prefer there to be less enemies, but more suprising enemies. In Doom 3 you quickly learned how to spot the places where the enemies where hiding, so you knew when to shoot where before seeing/hearing any creatures... One enemy who manages to scare me is better than 10+ enemies attacking me at once

But I wouldn't want to; goto x, pull lever y, jump to gate within z seconds

	20-10-2004 19:13									#3
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But what I'd defently like to see (best for mindless fragging MP deathmatch, but could be used elsewhere also) is 'different' maps:

Has anyone here played Serious Sam 2? Remember the second last map (IIRC) in the first episode? At some point you where walking in a tunnel, but the funny thing is, you could walk on the sides, so at some point you had an enemy just above your head, even though he also had his feet on the ground (seen from his perspective) while for the player it would look like he walked on the ceiling...

Or one of the MP maps for Sin; The map was just a box with lots of stairs etc, but not large. But there where many doors and when walking through one, you came out of another door, but that door could be on the ceiling or in the floor just next to you, so you ended up walking on the wall. A staircase could be used both ways because of this: Seen from a players perspective one player could stand 'above' the stairs (as you normally walk on), while another player could be just below it, while the have the feet on the same part of the stairs, but the heads in opposite directions...







And why are the 'weirdo' maps so seldom? I know that a few people have made some very fun maps for UT/UT2K3/UT2K4 where the map was one huge living room or bathroom, while the players are small enough to kinda 'look like' a toy-soldier... those where the most fun maps for UT+, there should be more of those maps...

	20-10-2004 20:03									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I defently don't want just another shooter game. I prefer fps games to not only have a good story, but also different ways to reach the ending(s). To be able to have a choice of where to go next; Should I go to the right or to the left? Both ways leads to the same place, but you may encounter different enemies/goodies

I would be fine with that, as long as I reach the same place either way. As long as I don't have to spend my time finding a way to get further. A good plot now is important, yes. At least some background and something happening during the game.

quote: And I would defently prefer there to be less enemies, but more suprising enemies. In Doom 3 you quickly learned how to spot the places where the enemies where hiding, so you knew when to shoot where before seeing/hearing any creatures... One enemy who manages to scare me is better than 10+ enemies attacking me at once

Doom3 is the only game/movie to have really scared me to date. Despite the fact that I knew where monsters were likely to be - that wasn't the scariness of it. I need many enemies, though. Fighting off one, two or three is too easy, unless they're very strong. But that's almost a boss fight then.

I am satisfied now with shooters that don't deviate too much from the classic formula. And I still don't like deathmatch....

	20-10-2004 20:09									#5
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I don't play much deathmatch either, because it seems to lack fun (They're all too serious), but when I find a good (fun) map and some to play against (in that map) and maybe add some different rules from time to time (Like having a "only rocket-launcher" or "only knifes" fight)

	20-10-2004 22:10									#6
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Half-Life is the standard to which all FPS games must compete against.

	20-10-2004 22:36									#7
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The standard is actually Doom. An interesting tidbit, how initially, it seemed like Half-Life's story was just an improved version of Doom's...

	20-10-2004 23:20									#8
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If I play an FPS, it's Flashpoint.

The majority of 'tactical' shooters just don't get warfare right like Flashpoint does..

	20-10-2004 23:27									#9
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Depends what you mean by complexity. Any significant non-linearity is a waste of time in shooters I agree, but there should be a wide range of enemies and weapons/fire modes.

	20-10-2004 23:51									#10
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You know, I find that many weapons with many fire modes, espeically thought-up, is just too much. I like how Doom did it, I like how Half-Life did it, with many weapons, but very diverse.

	20-10-2004 23:57									#11
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Well HL most would consider as having diverse enough weapons and fire modes. I haven't seen anyone advocate many more.

	21-10-2004 00:22									#12
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I don't remember how half-life did it, but I hate the way cs did it, with 6+ different snipers, 8+ handguns, 5+ shotguns, etc... I prefer there to be only 1 (max 2) different weapons of the same type

	21-10-2004 00:28									#13
	Got spare money?

The good part about HL was that weapons were, mostly, real. I don't like having three different kinds of a shock-ultra-pulse rifle in a game.

HL had the crowbar for melee, two pistols (diverse enough, one a semi-automatic Glock with low power, another a powerful Magnum), a submachine gun (MP5), a shotgun, the RPG, hand grenades, trip mines and satchel charges. Also the crossbow with a scope for zooming in, great power, slow fire, and silent. Added to that were 2 energy weapons (nothing funky, just powerful beams) and an alien weapon. It was a good weapon arsenal. Not too little, not too much. Each weapon did its own job. It wasn't like 5 different submachine guns. Want raw power, take the shotgun, want rapid fire, take MP5, etc.

	21-10-2004 05:11									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio But what I'd defently like to see (best for mindless fragging MP deathmatch, but could be used elsewhere also) is 'different' maps: Has anyone here played Serious Sam 2? Remember the second last map (IIRC) in the first episode? At some point you where walking in a tunnel, but the funny thing is, you could walk on the sides, so at some point you had an enemy just above your head, even though he also had his feet on the ground (seen from his perspective) while for the player it would look like he walked on the ceiling... Or one of the MP maps for Sin; The map was just a box with lots of stairs etc, but not large. But there where many doors and when walking through one, you came out of another door, but that door could be on the ceiling or in the floor just next to you, so you ended up walking on the wall. A staircase could be used both ways because of this: Seen from a players perspective one player could stand 'above' the stairs (as you normally walk on), while another player could be just below it, while the have the feet on the same part of the stairs, but the heads in opposite directions... And why are the 'weirdo' maps so seldom? I know that a few people have made some very fun maps for UT/UT2K3/UT2K4 where the map was one huge living room or bathroom, while the players are small enough to kinda 'look like' a toy-soldier... those where the most fun maps for UT+, there should be more of those maps...

I'm playing a lot of Serious Sam 2 lately, especially coop mode which is a lot of fun, and you can die as much as you want, you'll simply respawn within a second!
SS2 is packed with those tricks of pushing you into a spiked wall, bottomless pits, rotating rooms, monsters teleporting in your face and the like. On top of that many of the mosnters are pretty cool. I absolutely love the pumpkin headed farmers armed with chainsaw. The sound of such a chainsaw charging your back is just cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.


Btw, there are few DM maps in SS2, but at least a few of them have these funny tricks in them, in which you can jump on the ceiling etc..

	21-10-2004 06:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Deus Ex - King of FPS'

More of a FPS RPG hybrid, that being said, it is one of the best. For pure FPS, I liked the first max payne...just the right length...and I actually finished it because of this. NOLF was also good for this reason.

	21-10-2004 07:10									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Solver The standard is actually Doom.

Only for the low brow games like that one where you're a german turret gunner in WW2 mowing down soldiers as they land on the beach.

	21-10-2004 07:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Well HL most would consider as having diverse enough weapons and fire modes. I haven't seen anyone advocate many more.

The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.


As long as they all have logical and reasonable differences, of course.

	21-10-2004 07:16									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

Many weapon choices are a must for multiplayer. Linear maps are fine for single player though

	21-10-2004 08:52									#19
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The "complexity" of the levels, weapons, etc is not important. The complexity of the AIs is. In early FPS games, the AIs would basically just shoot at you once they saw you, without any dodging for cover, reactions to what you do, etc.

If you take the AIs from more recent games, they're more interesting. Halo's grunts, for example, are cowardly, and retreat if you hurt them or if their leader is killed. Elites are pretty fearless until their shields are taken down, and then they hide for cover until they're safe again. The different characteristics of the enemies makes it fun to fight them in different numbers and environments.

	21-10-2004 14:16									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

AI... yes, that's always important in any game. The first precedent for a good AI in FPS goes again, I believe, to Half-Life. There the marines were intelligent enough to take cover, duck when grenades were incoming, work in groups and coordinate fire, try to flank you, retreat and attempt and ambush or simply wait instead of running at you.

	21-10-2004 17:41									#21
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What good is AI in multiplayer?


What good is a FPS without multiplayer?

	21-10-2004 17:59									#22
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What good are different FPS for multiplayer? Quake 2 was released with its classic Deathmatch, why bother with any other game if you want the same unoriginal DM?

	21-10-2004 18:01									#23
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Why bother with any other game? Because Quake 2 sucked. And death matches are about as boring as playing through the single player game repeatadly.

That's why people play the Half-Life mods isntead.

	21-10-2004 18:29									#24
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That's something I still can't understand, despite having tried to. Deathmatch just never seemed fun to me. Maybe because deaths happen often there, you don't go alive for 10 minutes, no feeling of becoming better and stronger. I've played through single-player campaigns of some astounding games numerous times, but deathmatch...

	21-10-2004 19:50									#25
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Is Halo regaurded as an FPS in this case?
I think for me its the atmosphere in an FPS type game i like the most.
Maybe because its simply the graphical perspective of 'being there'? I never got into quake because i found the atmosphere in HL drew me into the game more.
Makes me enjoy Ghost Recon too - its easy to put yourself into 'realism' shoes - real guns, pretty real atmosphere - fun FPS type game.

Doom3 i dont know about, but at the time the origonal Doom was king of atmosphere looking at it now its hard to believe

I've heard good things about Metroid Prime, but that is also described as an adventure game?

	21-10-2004 19:54									#26
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Actually, I think that the original Doom still compares favorably with most FPS games!

	21-10-2004 19:59									#27
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gameplay wise i agree, but graphicaly - well its like cinderellas two other sisters
And it is the graphics i guess that give Doom3 much of its atmosphere?

	21-10-2004 20:02									#28
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Doom3's atmosphere comes from graphics... largely, but equally so from sound and the very clever level design. Doom3 graphics are so good that I feel absolutely immersed after 15 minutes playing. I don't care for graphics as much as gameplay though... so I'd pick Doom2 over most FPS games prior to Doom3, because the graphics on other FPS were just better. But not to the level of Doom3 where they look real.

	21-10-2004 21:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Doom3's (...) and the very clever level design.

Doom 3's level design is far from clever. It just feels like you're in the same room all the time

	21-10-2004 21:46									#30
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Have we been playing different games? Each section had a different feel to it, and the design was especially clever in how you were going along the one and only path without the bad feeling that you're led along that path... levels were intense, with good atmosphere, great detail... I honestly think it's a prime example of designing indoors levels.