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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Depends of their age. When they're 2 or something, no they can't. It takes quite a few years to completely understand life and death. |
And on top of that: who are you to think you understand better then a child who is facing a terminally incurable desease what life and death mean?
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Proteus_MST
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
proteus, well it does look like Rome has lost control if Catholic can choose what to believe in and remain Catholics. |
Yes, you can see it this way.
Speaking of Germany I can say that many Catholics or Protestants are only Catholics or Protestants, because their Parents were.
They get their protestant/catholic baptism, are raised in their protestant/catholic family, visiting a Kindergarten of their confession and receive Communion/Confirmation.
Afterwards they often only visit church if someone of their families dies, one of their Children hast to be baptized or for their wedding.
They are just recognized by Census as catholic/protestant, because they pay their protestant/catholic church taxes (which are used to pay for a lot of useful social projects, like psychological Hotlines, old peoples homes, Kindergarten and the like.
Their views often completely differ from those of their church, especially in case of Contraception (you won´t see many men/women, who refuse to use the pill or Condoms, just because the pope is against them)
As an Example for the difference between the views of the Vatican and his believers look at a case which we had in germany maybe 2 Years ago.
In Germany you can get an Abortion, if you go to an Abortion Information Center and consult the Psychologists there, finding ways to avoid abortion. If you, after this consultation, still wish to have the abortion performed, you get a receipt with which you can go to a doctor and legally get the abortion performed.
The catholic church operated a lot of these Information Centers before.
Of course the Pope / vatican didn´t like it, but the german Clerics still found ways to avoid that they had to close their Information Centers. At least till an Order of the Pope himself put an end to this.
(first the Information Centers were ordered not to issue official Consultation receipts anymore. But then instead they issued inofficial statements that an consultation has taken place, which were also accepted by hospitals and allowed the women to get their abortions. But after this became known to the Vatican, he ordered, that the Information Centers have to be closed altogether.
The last catholic Abortion Information Center was closed in 2002 (despite valiant resistance of Catholics (even Bishops and other Clerics) in Germany) )
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:20
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quote:
Nothing can be further from the truth.
Determinism: If A happens, B will.
Probabilistic: If A happens, B may happen, or B may not.
Random: If A happens, something else happen, but nobody knows what it is.
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It's not that simple. A system can be both deterministic, and random, governed by natural laws, that allow multiple outcomes.
I guess we are using two different definitions. For me, deterministic is synonymous with governed by natural laws, while random and probabilistic are still governed by such laws, even as their outcomes are not as predictable, because the mechanisms are poorly understood.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:20
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quote:
People begin to change their Behavior with proceeding stages of their disorder. In later stages of some neurodegenerative Disorders people often even hurt relatives and the ones they like.
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Same with many other disorders. Just because a neurological disorder afflicts someone, does not make them someone else. Even though these people are not functioning as they ought, this has no effect on their identity.
You talk to family members, and don't they say, "it's the disease talking?" They do not hold him personally accountable for his actions, because they do not believe him to be in control.
quote:
it was discovered, that his Personality had absolutely changed. Before the Accident Phinies was described as dependable, capable, kind, well liked and efficient (which must be the Reason why he became foreman ).
After the Accident his Behavior had significantly changed, he became profane, rude, obstinant, impatient and made several Plans without really carrying them out, which resulted that he was fired and till his death 11 years later wasn´t able to stay in a job for a long time anymore (and also resulted in Gage only being able to get low paying jobs, like Cart Driver or Farmworker)
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The point here has been answered. My personality is not synonymous with whom I am. My personality can change drastically, yet I am still the same person I was before the change.
The same is so with Phineas.
Now, if we are to say that our personality must remain constant in order for us to retain our identity, then that leads to some absurd conclusions.
None of us have a constant personality. We all fluctuate to some degree, yet our indentity remains the same.
quote:
If, as I showed in the case of Phineas Gage, Brain Damages are able to cause grave Changes in your Personality, i.e. in your way of thinking, what is "you"?
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I deny that presupposition that our identity is irrevocably tied to our personality.
quote:
Second question which only concerns religious Systems which include a jugdement after death is:
Lets assume someone is a very religious Believer in a (say the christian) Religion, who every Sunday goes to mass, doesn´t drink and is faithful to his spouse.
But after a Brain damage his Behavior changes diametrically, he begins to drink alcoholic drinks en masse, leaves his spouse to have regularly changing sexual relationships with several women and till his death shows no signs of religiosity anymore.
How should/would God judge him?
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That's a good question.
Look at the person afflicted by a neurological disorder say schizophrenia or some form of Psychotic behaviour.
We are taught that all our accidents, what pertains not to our nature, will fade away after the second coming. Things like this brain damage will also fade away, and we will see each person as they truly are.
CS Lewis also takes this the opposite way. The person who has a good temperate nature, will lose all that. He will no longer have the accidents that mitigated his irresolute behaviour.
I have faith that God will gage our hearts, and he understands what rotton machines we are trying to drive.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:20
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quote:
Catholic Employers have btw. the same rights to choose which Persons they employ. There were certain cases of women who didn´t get employed by church, because they were divorced.
Therefore also the catholic church could often be accused of Discrimination against certain persons. |
Church is not a state. State represents all the people on its territory, the church does not.
quote:
He is a guy who voices a belief that homosexuality is sin, and that women should be under the protection and dependence of a male. His statements are what made him a target, not the religion he adheres to.
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That He thinks homosexuality is a sin, it is not a crime or anything bad. There are hungreds of much more ridiculous religious beliefs.
You can't say it didn't target his religion. It's like You asked a Muslim whether He thinks women ought to wear hijabs and He said yes, and You would not let him get the job, wouldn't it be because part of his religious beliefs?
There's a question if these things are really a part of the religion, perhaps they are misinterpretations etc,
but today, considering gayness a sin is part of catholic doctrine and You can't persecute people because of such view.
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BlackCat
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This is BS :
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
You are wrong. But it's not a big suprise.
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But this is not because now i know what you mean. Can you see the difference ?
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
This is bullshit?
I try not to use ugly words, and did not, when I ought to, so I guess You didn't get my point: your view of catholicism is completely deformated and proves either lack of knowledge, or unimaginable bias, or else.
How can someone describing catholic church as a child molester be enangered by my constatation that He's `wrong and it's not much of a suprise when He says something dumb about the very same church again?
You WERE wrong again. Your claim that church is against abortions because it wants more humans, not because it wants to protect the unborned, it biased and simply untrue. That may be an additional reason, but secundary.
Yes, church wants more people. There's nothing wrong with that. We NEED more people in Europe. Why do You think Europe needs immigrants?
European countries' societies, well, the autochtonic ones, do not grow, but, their size is decreasing. |
But then again - i wrote both "As a far out example" and "i admit it's a unfair comparison" so how can you in any way assume that i in any way think that i think that the catolic church is for child molestration ? You certainly didn't get my point which was if a person is unable to be trusted to do the job correctly, then you don't hire this person.
I still belive that a main reason theat the catholicchurch is against abortion is the "mulitpy" issue, just as they figth hardly to ban contraceptives even though it would save a lot of lives especially in parts of africa hit by aids.
About the part about we "NEED more people in europe", i think it's a lie that has been said so many times that people thinks its true. Several contries in europe has a relatively high unemployment rate; companies are moving eastward an thereby adding to this, so where are the need ?
If you think it is nessecary with immigration to keep up the BNP's europe, then you are wrong. Just look at the improvements of applying robots in the industry. Maybe there are fewer people, but BNP per head are growing.
I think it would be a good idea if we had as a goal that over long terms the population goes against the half of what it is now, so i see no problem in that there is a drop in birthrates.
If you are asking why i think like this, then the answer is simple : not enough ressources.
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BlackCat
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Of course i would. Sometimes it's nessecary to say things in a way that makes it unmistakably what you mean and pointing out it's a parrallel. You just chose to misunderstand me. The reason i didn't belive he should have the job is that he has claimed clearly that he wouldn't do it as he should.
I don't understand. Sex between married couples has never been a sin.
I don't understand your second question, please explain further.
I agree, europe isn't the main source for growth, but i still think we are too many - europe are wery small but still we use a serious amount of resources. Also i don't think we send a reasonable signal if we say "just send your surplus of people", because then the most problematic contries are less obliged to do something about the real problem.
I hate to say it, but i has to say a positive thing about the terrorregime in china. Their one child policy may be what can rescue the world; amy other countries adobt the same policy.
Last edited by BlackCat on 27-10-2004 at 02:05
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:20
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quote:
Of course i would. Sometimes it's nessecary to say things in a way that makes it unmistakably what you mean and pointing out it's a parrallel. You just chose to misunderstand me. The reason i didn't belive he should have the job is that he has claimed clearly that he wouldn't do it as he should.
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You deliberately used a comparison that insulted catholics.
quote:
I don't understand. Sex between married couples has never been a sin.
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Of course it was. Married couples should have not get pleasure from it, no experimenting, no sex for pleasure, just a sex from time to time to make the human rase not go extinct
The second point - well, You said that there are too many people and that unemployment proves that. But it is a wrong thought in my opinion. Some don't work because they don't want to, some because they can't, some because there are not enough jobs in the sector they'd like to work in...
And anyway, immigrants come and there is a work for them. Europe gets old, and working masses are needed to pay for supporting the elderly. With current natural growth, without immigration, it isn't possible.
China - yes, perhaps. But how will You force 1 child policy in other countries?
And what resources do we miss?
We must use the ones we have wiser, and learn to use new ones, especially the never-ending ones, like solar power. That's enough.
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Proteus_MST
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Oh, and He didn't claim He wouldn't do it the way He should.
That He thinks family should look this way, doesn't mean he wouldn't condemn the ones that would force this model on their wifes or husbands.
Again, such model of family is not a discrimination itself, only when You force it on someone.
That He thinks gay activities are sinful, doesn't mean He wouldn't protect gays from discrimination.
The question is what do You mean by discrimination.
You can think that lack of possibility of gay marriage is a discrimination, but the same You can think it is not.
It is a matter of discussion and I'm not sure if a majority of EU population shares the first view - or at least large part of it does not.
By all this fuss, EU officials only proved that they treat EU as a machine of forcing their political and sociological views on others. |
Well, but maybe the Discrimination of Gays could be a major Problem for Buttiglione.
According to a Newspaper Article I read today, Butiglione actively tried to stop Anti Discrimination Laws against gays and Lesbians.
And according to some Internet-Sources these laws he tried to stop didn´t concern Gay Marriages, but were intended to stop Workplace Discrimination against Gays and Lesbians.
See here:
quote:
According Britain’s out gay Member of the European Parliament, Michael
Cashman MEP, Buttiglione opposed including non-discrimination on the
grounds of sexual orientation in the EU’s new Charter of Fundamental
Rights.
The Italian LGBT movement, ArciGay, has confirmed that Buttiglione
also watered down the EU’s directive banning discrimination against
lesbians and gays in the workplace, permitting homophobic
discrimination by key Italian government bodies.
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http://uk.gay.com/boards/read.php?f=5&t=9856&i=9856
quote:
But Mr Cashman said Mr Buttiglione, a former Europe minister in Silvio Berlusconi's Italian cabinet, had put forward an amendment to delete non-discrimination on sexual grounds during the drawing up of the EU's charter of fundamental rights.
"We should not judge him by what he says but what he did and does."
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights...1325217,00.html
If the above stated is true, he is truely unfit to hold a position in which he has to supervise human rights and anti-discrimination policies within the EU.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Are all the children that fall under this Dutch bill terminally ill?
The policy applies to all children.
A child who is depressed, could opt for assisted suicide, and depression is hardly an incurable, terminal illness. |
As far as I know, there is no specific bill for children.
As far as I know, the conditions that need to be met for euthanasia is "uitzichtloos lijden", that I can best translate as 'perspectiveless suffering'.
Depression doesn't qualify.
I'm not sure, and have no figures or links to sopport the following claim, but I'm quite convinced that most euthanisia's are done by:
1: treatment is stopped, f.e. no more drugs to slow down the progress of the disease, or switching off life-support.
2: increasing the levels of morphine the patients are given.
3: and this is still quite rare: actively injecting lethal substances.
I do wish to point out that euthanasia is no easy thing to do here, and that at least two (could be even three) MD's must agree that the suffering is perspectiveless.
(Apart from the patient having the same opinion  )
For what its worth: surveys done show that for the remaining family and loved ones, euthanasia enables them to cope better with the loss.
Now, that obviously doesn't mean that euthanasia is the way to go for everybody that runs the risk of dying anyway, but it does indicate that a useless prolonging of suffering may not only be damging for the patient, but for their relatives as well.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
You deliberately used a comparison that insulted catholics.
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How can you in any way know what my reaons for any argument are ???
I don't for a second think a person with catholic belief is a child molestor per def, and certainly not a civilian catholic (that is a person born and raised in an catholic environment), but then again, several histories in the past years has proven that official catholics (priests and up) has abused their positions, so maybe you are right - unconciousless i may have made certain connections. Just to be precise - i don't in no way connect that to civilian catholics.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Of course it was. Married couples should have not get pleasure from it, no experimenting, no sex for pleasure, just a sex from time to time to make the human rase not go extinct
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No way, just read the bible - maybe it's mostly the old one but nevertheless it's a part of christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
The second point - well, You said that there are too many people and that unemployment proves that. But it is a wrong thought in my opinion. Some don't work because they don't want to, some because they can't, some because there are not enough jobs in the sector they'd like to work in...
And anyway, immigrants come and there is a work for them. Europe gets old, and working masses are needed to pay for supporting the elderly. With current natural growth, without immigration, it isn't possible.
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Not true. There are a extremely high unemployment rate for immigrants unless they have a high education. Supporting elderly is not an issue - that is of course they shall be supported, but it's a short term problem (maybe 20 years) due to the period where there was a large buildup in population.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
China - yes, perhaps. But how will You force 1 child policy in other countries?
And what resources do we miss?
We must use the ones we have wiser, and learn to use new ones, especially the never-ending ones, like solar power. That's enough. |
Didn't say it would be easy.
Resorces ? Well just imagine 6+ bill. people living according to western standard and many more resources will be in trouble, and there i'm not talking about energy.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat
I don't for a second think a person with catholic belief is a child molestor per def, and certainly not a civilian catholic (that is a person born and raised in an catholic environment), but then again, several histories in the past years has proven that official catholics (priests and up) has abused their positions, so maybe you are right - unconciousless i may have made certain connections. Just to be precise - i don't in no way connect that to civilian catholics.
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You hold a silly anti-catholic bias. I pity You.
quote:
No way, just read the bible - maybe it's mostly the old one but nevertheless it's a part of christianity.
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1) I'm telling You what the official doctrine was
2) Old Testament isn't necessarily and in all parts legitimate in Christianity
quote:
Not true. There are a extremely high unemployment rate for immigrants unless they have a high education. Supporting elderly is not an issue - that is of course they shall be supported, but it's a short term problem (maybe 20 years) due to the period where there was a large buildup in population.
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And what will happen then? When will the decline of population stop?
Immigrants are needed. For cheap labour that local citizens aren't very keen to do mostly, but still.
Didn't say it would be easy.
What do You mean by 6+ bill?
I think the humanity will learn to use new resources or to grow without them. I do not see radical problems caused by population growth in highly advanced societies, if there is a proper infrastructure to deal with the wastes.
Last edited by Heresson on 29-10-2004 at 23:46
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26-10-2004 04:16
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