Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > EU is becoming anti-christian in politics
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (13): [ 1   2   3   4     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 20:57 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
EU is becoming anti-christian in politics Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That's basically what the Vatican fears, according to the following article in the WaPo.

One of the enduring fascinating differences between the US (maybe Canada too) and the EU is that there's a strong anti-clerical strain in some countries of the EU and hardly any in the US.* This is probably due to the fact that few of the church hierarchies (catholic and protestant) has ever had any real political power at the national level in the US.**

To be sure, there's a whole load of anti-catholicism in the US, some of which you can see on Apolyton. But anti-catholicism doesn't seem to have much political impact. For instance, Kerry is losing a whole lot more votes because he's not a "good catholic" than because he is a catholic. He is losing a lot more votes because he doesn't speak well about his faith than because he is mixing religion with the secular. (Btw, I disagree with the article in that issues such as abortion are controversial, but the fact that the church is holding strong positions that touch on these issues is uncontroversial.)

*I don't consider the freemasons to be a church hierarchy. The anti-masons are the only movement in the US that I can remember that has shades of anti-clericalism. Besides, both the freemason and anti-mason movement died out long ago.

Regarding the long-running pedo scandals, that leads more to a decline in the moral authority of the church hierarchy rather than any anti-clerical movement.

**The methodists had a strong impact on the abolitionist movement. I'm sure you could find other isolated exceptions, such as prohibitionists, but these exceptions seem to prove the rule.

quote:
Vatican Is Alarmed by Political Trend In Europe
Policies in Many Countries Contradict Church Doctrine

By Daniel Williams
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, October 20, 2004; Page A16

VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican is becoming increasingly alarmed at what it regards as official anti-Roman Catholic sentiment and secular trends in Europe, as government after government approves measures on abortion, family law and scientific study that run counter to Catholic teaching.

Vatican concerns rocketed into view during a controversy in the European Parliament this month over remarks on homosexuality and women by an Italian politician who has close ties to the Holy See.

On Oct. 5, a committee of European Parliament members voted to oppose Italy's nomination of Rocco Buttiglione, a Christian Democrat, to be the European Union's justice commissioner. During a hearing before the Parliament's Civil Liberties Committee, he had labeled homosexuality a sin and asserted that the family exists so a woman can raise children under a man's protection. Buttiglione is a friend of Pope John Paul II and various high-ranking Vatican officials.

"It looks like a new Inquisition. It is a lay Inquisition, but it is so nasty," Cardinal Renato Martino, who heads the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, told reporters this week in response to the dispute. "You can freely insult and attack Catholics and nobody will say anything. If you do so for other confessions, let's see what would happen."

The controversy was new proof of the heat of a long debate in Europe over issues of women's equality in the workplace, gay marriage, abortion, scientific research using human embryos and separation of church and state.

Such debates are also intense in the United States, where the Vatican has waged a campaign against abortion, advising U.S. bishops on the inadmissibility of giving Communion to Catholic politicians who persist in supporting abortion rights. It did not specify names, but some bishops in the United States have said they would not administer the sacrament to Sen. John F. Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate.

Yet trends that go against the preaching of the pope are more advanced in parts of Western Europe than in the United States, some Vatican officials contend. To the Vatican, Europe's moral landscape is bleak.

Vatican officials and media outlets have expressed alarm over new policies being prepared in Spain by the Socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. His government is considering legalizing gay marriage, speeding up divorces and ending obligatory religious instruction in public schools.

Concurrently, Britain has approved research on the curative possibilities of stem cells from human embryos. In the Netherlands, the practice of euthanasia continues over church objections. In Italy, secular politicians have mounted a campaign to hold a referendum aimed at loosening a new law on laboratory-assisted fertilization. The law currently prohibits the use of donor sperm, frozen embryos and surrogate mothers.

In a speech on Sept. 20, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the head of Italy's bishops conference, criticized Spain for "emptying the family of its significance." He accused the Italian press of "hammering" the issue of artificial insemination in order to promote a referendum. Stem cell research in Britain and euthanasia for children with incurable diseases in the Netherlands "clearly demonstrate developments that result in the loss of recognition of the uniqueness and inviolability of the human subject," Ruini said.

The lay offensive, as some Vatican officials call it, has prompted the pope to intensify the search for common ground with non-Catholics on key moral and ethical issues. In particular, the pontiff has called for teaching and promoting the philosophical notion of "natural law," unchanging truths that underlie human activity across religion and cultures.

In February, during an audience with Cardinal Josef Ratzinger, the head of the Vatican department of doctrine, the pope said, "Natural law, accessible per se to every rational creature, indicates the first and essential norms that regulate moral life." He urged construction of "a platform of shared values . . . on which a constructive dialogue can be developed with all men and women of goodwill and, more in general, with secular society."

References to natural law are designed "to emphasize that issues like preserving life are not imposition of Catholic teaching but rather truths that are not religion-specific," explained the Rev. Augustine DiNoia, an assistant of Ratzinger's.

DiNoia said that over the past 20 years, John Paul and senior Vatican officials have become disillusioned with moral and ethical trends in Europe. He said the pope, more than any of his predecessors, had embraced Western democracy on the assumption that it was rooted in natural law, including a consensus for the protection of life at conception and the sanctity of marriage and family.

Dialogue with Europeans is complicated by histories of violent religious conflict that in some cases left behind strong sentiments against the Catholic Church, and not only in Protestant countries. Spain's civil war in the 1930s pitted Republicans against Fascists who were backed by large segments of the Catholic clergy. Catholic support for the long rule of the dictator Francisco Franco colors today's view of the church among Spain's Socialists, historical heirs to the Republican backers of the civil war.

Even Italy, home of the papacy, contains a streak of anti-clericalism dating from the Italian nationalists' 19th-century defeat of the pope's state in central Italy and the crushing of his political power.

Buttiglione, a seasoned politician and political science professor, was nominated to the European Commission by Italy's prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi.

In Buttiglione's appearance before the European Parliament panel, he argued that he could keep to his own moral standards and still do the job, which would include upholding E.U. prohibitions against discrimination on the basis of race, sexual orientation and other grounds. "I may think that homosexuality is a sin, and it has no effect on politics unless I say homosexuality is a crime," he said.

On women, he said, "The family exists to permit a woman to have children and be protected by her husband."

Buttiglione's opponents insist they are not anti-Catholic but believe that it is proper to veto a commissioner whose views run counter to anti-discrimination laws and who has politically opposed equal rights for gays. "The justice portfolio is not appropriate for him," said Sophia Helena in't Velt, a member of the Alliance of Democrats and Liberals for Europe, a bloc that opposed Buttiglione's nomination.

A final, full vote on Buttiglione's candidacy is scheduled for Oct. 27, when the entire list of two dozen E.U. commissioners is to be put before the European Parliament for ratification. It cannot veto only one candidate. Negotiations among E.U. politicians are underway about Buttiglione's fate. He has said he will not withdraw.

Last edited by DanS on 20-10-2004 at 21:06

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:01 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

By the way, I view a lot of what Buttiglione has said as more having to do with Italian machismo than any real issues that need to be discussed.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

quote:
One of the enduring fascinating differences between the US (maybe Canada too) and the EU is that there's a strong anti-clerical strain in some countries of the EU and hardly any in the US.


Hrm. Maybe I really should look into moving. Lots of family in Britain...

-Arrian

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:03
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

The ACLU has pull with NATO?

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:04 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

I have to admit that the ACLU/NATO comment went right over my head.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

It's from Japher, it's unlikely to have gone OVER your head...

-Arrian

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:06 Visit MikeH's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

It's not anti-Catholic, it's just that European governments are moving with the times and the Catholic leaders aren't - although many Catholics are.

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
Emperor
Hawthrone
Mar 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:07 Visit Atahualpa's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:07
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
The ACLU has pull with NATO?


Crap! My first post of the day... It's gonna be a long day.

I meant:

"The ACLU has pull with the EU"... don't know where I got NATO from.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:07
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I have to admit that the ACLU/NATO comment went right over my head.


ACLU is sometimes called the "anti-Christian liberties union" by religionists.

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:08 Visit MikeH's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Seperation of politics and religion is a good thing anyway, it's even in the US constitution!

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
Emperor
Hawthrone
Mar 1999
time: 06:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:08 Visit Atahualpa's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
as government after government approves measures on abortion, family law and scientific study that run counter to Catholic teaching.




The earth is flat indeed!!!

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:09 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote:
Seperation of politics and religion is a good thing anyway, it's even in the US constitution!


As you understand the separation of church and state, it's not in the US constitution. At its founding, the US had nothing to fear from religion imposing itself on politics, but had a lot to fear from politics imposing itself on religion.

Last edited by DanS on 20-10-2004 at 21:28

lightblue is offline lightblue
Chieftain
L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't see an issue. The days that the Vatican could prescribe what to think are thankfully disappearing. Religion has absolutely no place what so ever in a modern state (and it's one of my main gripes with Bush). I think in the next 100-150 years religions will largely cease to exist after the nutjobs have killed eachother off.

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:12 Visit MikeH's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by DanS


As you understanding the separation of church and state, it's not in the US constitution. At its founding, the US had nothing to fear from religion getting into its politics.


Ok that is true.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:15 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Religion has absolutely no place what so ever in a modern state (and it's one of my main gripes with Bush).


Please note that the populations of advanced, modern states are split on this issue. The US has a good portion of the total population of these states. Note also that Bush is following the path very well worn by his predecessors. Religion in politics in the US is like apple pie -- it has always been thus.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:20
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yeah, I don't see it as anti-Christian either. European human rights has determined that some things should be legal which the church doesn't want legal, such as homosexuality and abortion. To be at odds over those issues is not being anti-Catholic.

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:20 Visit BeBro's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Which, of course, does not mean that it should be the same in the EU.

Edit: to DanS

lightblue is offline lightblue
Chieftain
L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

The US has a fascination with religion because we shipped all our religious nutjobs over and they ended up being the founding Fathers and all that

To be fair i don't know why Americans are so into religion compared to say Western Europe or Australia. I used to think it was because Europe was so disgusted with humanity after WW1 and 2 that it slowly became more untenable to belive in a god that could be associated with us. Australia does not have that background though.. Guess we sent the crims to Australia and the religious nutjobs to the US.

The main issue with church and state combining is that in our current multicultural nations there are numerous religions and only the majority religion will make the rules (look at Saudi or iran for what that turns into). If the religious right ni the US keeps going, i can see the US turning into a similar state in due time, though I reckon you'd have certain states secceeding.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:22
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

Many of the founding fathers were deists or atheists.

lightblue is offline lightblue
Chieftain
L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ok, take that bit out and the rest still stands. The whole early colonial times were dominated by various religous sects that were deported wholesale.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:24 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Christianity

germanos is offline germanos
Prince
behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:26
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by DanS
By the way, I view a lot of what Buttiglione has said as more having to do with Italian machismo than any real issues that need to be discussed.


Whining to your opponents that they are anti-catholic is machismo
What he butthead he is .

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:26
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

Good for the EU

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:26
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by lightblue
Ok, take that bit out and the rest still stands. The whole early colonial times were dominated by various religous sects that were deported wholesale.


It's not that. It's that there was never a violent revolt against an integrated church and state, because we headed off that issue.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:33 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Germanos: I was referring to his comment that "[t]he family exists to permit a woman to have children and be protected by her husband." This seems to me to be more Italian machismo than anything else because the family exists for a lot of other reasons as well.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:35 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Which, of course, does not mean that it should be the same in the EU.


I think the EU should come up with a compromise that works best for the EU, without sidelining some people like the Poles, who don't appear to have the same opinions as the rabid anti-clerical French. For the Poles, the church led them out of communism and into democracy. The Poles in turn led Eastern Europe out of communism into democracy. Stuff like that should be honored.

Proteus_MST is offline Proteus_MST
Prince

Dec 2001
time: 06:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yeah, I don't see it as anti-Christian either. European human rights has determined that some things should be legal which the church doesn't want legal, such as homosexuality and abortion. To be at odds over those issues is not being anti-Catholic.


Yep.
Most states within the EU really practice the Separation between church and state,
although there are political parties within most of the States whose Opinions more resemble the Opinions of the church
(for example in Germany this would be the CDU [Christian Democratic Union] whith their current Leader Angela Merkel, and at the last Elections we even had a small Party which wanted to create some kind of Christian Godstate fortunately they didnīt get many votes ])

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:47
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by DanS


I think the EU should come up with a compromise that works best for the EU, without sidelining some people like the Poles, who don't appear to have the same opinions as the rabid anti-clerical French. For the Poles, the church led them out of communism and into democracy. The Poles in turn led Eastern Europe out of communism into democracy. Stuff like that should be honored.


Why? Poland can chose not to join the EU if they care that much. The EU should priorotize equal human rights to all its members-screw the religious opinions of other individuals.

alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:20
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:49
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by DanS


Please note that the populations of advanced, modern states are split on this issue. The US has a good portion of the total population of these states. Note also that Bush is following the path very well worn by his predecessors. Religion in politics in the US is like apple pie -- it has always been thus.


Hmm, am I correct in thinking that for example New-york is pretty much on par with Europe on this issue.

Anyway, you'll get there too, someday. Eventually enlightenment will hapen for you guys too....I hope.

 
Pages (13): [ 1   2   3   4     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:20.
Apolyton Time is 00:20.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0793 seconds (89.74% PHP - 10.26% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net