24-10-2004 23:28									#331
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Dear Heresson. I really loves it when i get a clear and unmistakeable answer just as yours. You have really proven your point and i just bow and accept your godlike wisdom. I have just one small question - where the hell do you think i'm wrong ???? IF you really thinks that you have some golden words that will enlighten the rest of us, then please send them instead of this BS.

This is bullshit?
I try not to use ugly words, and did not, when I ought to, so I guess You didn't get my point: your view of catholicism is completely deformated and proves either lack of knowledge, or unimaginable bias, or else.
How can someone describing catholic church as a child molester be enangered by my constatation that He's `wrong and it's not much of a suprise when He says something dumb about the very same church again?

You WERE wrong again. Your claim that church is against abortions because it wants more humans, not because it wants to protect the unborned, it biased and simply untrue. That may be an additional reason, but secundary.
Yes, church wants more people. There's nothing wrong with that. We NEED more people in Europe. Why do You think Europe needs immigrants?
European countries' societies, well, the autochtonic ones, do not grow, but, their size is decreasing.

	26-10-2004 02:04									#332
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat That would be true if the person was elected, but since he is applying for a job at EU the employers has a right to check out if he can do the job right. No responsible employer would hire a HRM who states that certain people (women, gay etc) would be filtered out if he is hired.

HRM is what? Why can't a Catholic hold such a job?

Why is religious discrimination in the EU against Catholics fashionable?

	26-10-2004 02:12									#333
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quote: Originally posted by Ned HRM is what?

Human Resources Manager

quote: Why can't a Catholic hold such a job?

I wouldn't know. All the HRMs I know (admittedly, on a small sample) are believers, like the majority of Europeans.

quote: Why is religious discrimination in the EU against Catholics fashionable?

I don't know where you find a fashion of anti-catholic discrimination. I sure don't see any.

	26-10-2004 02:18									#334
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None of the discussion here has dicussed the Netherlands NAZI-like policy of killing young children with incurable diseases. What next, deformed children? Old people? Mentally retarded.

Were the NAZI's barbaric, or just ahead of their times?

	26-10-2004 02:21									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Human Resources Manager quote: Why can't a Catholic hold such a job? I wouldn't know. All the HRMs I know (admittedly, on a small sample) are believers, like the majority of Europeans. I don't know where you find a fashion of anti-catholic discrimination. I sure don't see any.

Re-read the initial post here. Catholics cannot hold certain jobs in the EU, including Justice Minister. That is discrimination based on religion.

	26-10-2004 02:31									#336
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Now let me ask. If the Dutch are alone in their practice of killing born babies, why is their practice not held illegal under EU law?

	26-10-2004 02:33									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Ned None of the discussion here has dicussed the Netherlands NAZI-like policy of killing young children with incurable diseases. What next, deformed children? Old people? Mentally retarded.

	26-10-2004 02:34									#338
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Next question: if it is OK under EU law to kill a fertilized embryo for science, why is it not OK for doctors to conduct experiments on aborted fetuses and those same humans that are designated for destruction ala the Netherlands?

	26-10-2004 02:36									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Re-read the initial post here. Catholics cannot hold certain jobs in the EU, including Justice Minister. That is discrimination based on religion.

Either you are trolling me, or you don't understand the matter at all.

That Italian guy is not simply a catholic. He is a guy who voices a belief that homosexuality is sin, and that women should be under the protection and dependence of a male. His statements are what made him a target, not the religion he adheres to.

We also had plenty of catholics ministers, in indidivdual countries as well as at the EU level. Only that those people we had in power weren't extremists. No matter the religion, the Eu doesn't like extremists, except free-market ones.

	26-10-2004 02:36									#340
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quote: Originally posted by germanos

I take that as a yes.

	26-10-2004 02:39									#341
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Either you are trolling me, or you don't understand the matter at all. That Italian guy is not simply a catholic. He is a guy who voices a belief that homosexuality is sin, and that women should be under the protection and dependence of a male. His statements are what made him a target, not the religion he adheres to. We also had plenty of catholics ministers, in indidivdual countries as well as at the EU level. Only that those people we had in power weren't extremists. No matter the religion, the Eu doesn't like extremists, except free-market ones.

Bull, those people who do not believe Church dogma are not Catholics. (As I said, I believe the Church has to change its position on Homosexuality because it conflicts fundamentally with its central doctrine that sin is a committed only by choice in the exercise of free will.)

	26-10-2004 02:47									#342
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bull, those people who do not believe Church dogma are not Catholics. (As I said, I believe the Church has to change its position on Homosexuality because it conflicts fundamentally with its central doctrine that sin is a committed only by choice in the exercise of free will.)

Romano Prodi (you know, the EU's president) is a noted catholic, and even pushed for the mention of God in the European constitution.

Yet, he managed to become president of the EU . Maybe it has to do with him not making bigoted statements and voicing opinions that go completely opposite to what the EU stands for?

	26-10-2004 02:58									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I take that as a yes.

Ned: you spit out some crap here. I have no idea what you are talking about. If you are trying to invoke a debate, or even participate in one, making dumb references to nazi's is... is... well, I have no words for it.

	26-10-2004 03:14									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Romano Prodi (you know, the EU's president) is a noted catholic, and even pushed for the mention of God in the European constitution. Yet, he managed to become president of the EU . Maybe it has to do with him not making bigoted statements and voicing opinions that go completely opposite to what the EU stands for?

Still, if you asked Prodi, I think he would give you the same answer as the other Italian gentlemen on the two issues because that is what Catholics are supposed to believe.

	26-10-2004 03:16									#345
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Alright, germanos. Let's leave the Nazi's out of it.

Who decides to kill the children with incurable diseases, and why is this not considered to be a crime?

	26-10-2004 03:16									#346
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quote: Originally posted by DanS As you understand the separation of church and state, it's not in the US constitution. At its founding, the US had nothing to fear from religion imposing itself on politics, but had a lot to fear from politics imposing itself on religion.

And today, with President Bush's strong ties with religious-right organizations, there is a real fear of religion imposing itself on politics.

	26-10-2004 03:19									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Still, if you asked Prodi, I think he would give you the same answer as the other Italian gentlemen on the two issues because that is what Catholics are supposed to believe.

If I asked Prodi, whatever his opinions, he would have doged the question because any marked opinion in the matter of homosexuality threatens the consensus the EU institutions love so much.

And if I asked Prodi about the family, he would have cautiously avoided giving pre-determined roles to men and women in his answer. Because all the feminists would then be on his back, and a politician with a hint of talent will avoid that.

	26-10-2004 03:21									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Alright, germanos. Let's leave the Nazi's out of it. Who decides to kill the children with incurable diseases, and why is this not considered to be a crime?

Frankly, I don't know what you are hinting at.

Nobody is being killed here because they have an incurable disease. If you say it happens, please back it up with some info.

If babies with serious deficiences are left too die, it will only happen with consent of their parents.

	26-10-2004 03:26									#349
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Damn it, that he's catholic is beside the real point here. First of, he holds opinion that could turn out to be a problem for the particular job he was supposed to do as a commissioner. Second, and imho the important thing here, this is a power stuggle between the commission and the European parlament that wants to increase their influence on who's part of the former.

People that lacks proper insight just missunderstands everything.

	26-10-2004 03:34									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Second, and imho the important thing here, this is a power stuggle between the commission and the European parlament that wants to increase their influence on who's part of the former.

BTW, I expect the MEPs to be wimps again, and to vote for that commission

	26-10-2004 03:36									#351
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Germanos, from the initial post in this thread.

"Concurrently, Britain has approved research on the curative possibilities of stem cells from human embryos. In the Netherlands, the practice of euthanasia continues over church objections. In Italy, secular politicians have mounted a campaign to hold a referendum aimed at loosening a new law on laboratory-assisted fertilization. The law currently prohibits the use of donor sperm, frozen embryos and surrogate mothers.

In a speech on Sept. 20, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the head of Italy's bishops conference, criticized Spain for "emptying the family of its significance." He accused the Italian press of "hammering" the issue of artificial insemination in order to promote a referendum. Stem cell research in Britain and euthanasia for children with incurable diseases in the Netherlands "clearly demonstrate developments that result in the loss of recognition of the uniqueness and inviolability of the human subject," Ruini said."

	26-10-2004 03:43									#352
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Euthanasia for children is very bad Death should be a personal choice, not a choice made for you (even if made by your tutor)

	26-10-2004 03:55									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Either you are trolling me, or you don't understand the matter at all. That Italian guy is not simply a catholic. He is a guy who voices a belief that homosexuality is sin, and that women should be under the protection and dependence of a male. His statements are what made him a target, not the religion he adheres to. We also had plenty of catholics ministers, in indidivdual countries as well as at the EU level. Only that those people we had in power weren't extremists. No matter the religion, the Eu doesn't like extremists, except free-market ones.

I second that.
It isnīt that he is Catholic,
but his strong Opinions concerning things like Gay rights and the Role of the woman let some people in the Parliament assume, that he wouldnīt be able to do the Job properly, which includes to represent a majority of people in Europe properly, which has far different Opinions than himself
(If you think that only those people are catholics, which agree fully with the Agenda of the catholic Church, Ned, you will find out that these catholics are only a small minority in Europe. Most Catholics in Europe [and even catholic priests] are much more liberal than the Vatican concerning important matters like divorce, Sex and Contraception, Gays and even things like Abortion)

Catholic Employers have btw. the same rights to choose which Persons they employ. There were certain cases of women who didnīt get employed by church, because they were divorced.
Therefore also the catholic church could often be accused of Discrimination against certain persons.

	26-10-2004 04:00									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Germanos, from the initial post in this thread. "Concurrently, Britain has approved research on the curative possibilities of stem cells from human embryos. In the Netherlands, the practice of euthanasia continues over church objections. In Italy, secular politicians have mounted a campaign to hold a referendum aimed at loosening a new law on laboratory-assisted fertilization. The law currently prohibits the use of donor sperm, frozen embryos and surrogate mothers. In a speech on Sept. 20, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the head of Italy's bishops conference, criticized Spain for "emptying the family of its significance." He accused the Italian press of "hammering" the issue of artificial insemination in order to promote a referendum. Stem cell research in Britain and euthanasia for children with incurable diseases in the Netherlands "clearly demonstrate developments that result in the loss of recognition of the uniqueness and inviolability of the human subject," Ruini said."

Bolding of keywords mine.


It's euthanasia Ned. Not killing, it's more like suicide, without the blood splattered all around. The persons who will die have chosen to do so themselves, and in the case of minors, their parents will have to give their consent as well.
Please note that the MD's are not at all keen on performing euthanasia and nobody is advocating it is a splendid idea to just jump the wagon if things turn against you.


I completely disagree with said cardinal, and his assumption that Euthanasia-laws in the Netherlands "clearly demonstrate developments that result in the loss of recognition of the uniqueness and inviolability of the human subject"are IMO unfounded. In fact, it can be argued that the laws in place here actually increase the "recognition of the uniqueness and inviolability of the human subject". Nobody here, not even a cardinal who claims to be Gods representative on earth, not even God himself can tell you when it's time to go. And offcourse in cases like this the more appropriate way to say this would be: they cannot tell you to keep suffering simply because the Reaper Man has a full agenda, but certainly is overdue.

The "human subject" (what a strange way to refer to a person by the way, rather demeaning now that I come to think of it) has a rather big say in how his last hours will be, instead of waiting aimlessly for the inevitable.

	26-10-2004 04:01									#355
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proteus, well it does look like Rome has lost control if Catholic can choose what to believe in and remain Catholics.

	26-10-2004 04:02									#356
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Euthanasia for children is very bad Death should be a personal choice, not a choice made for you (even if made by your tutor)

Children are not capable of making a personal choice?

	26-10-2004 04:04									#357
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Children are not capable of making a personal choice?

Depends of their age. When they're 2 or something, no they can't. It takes quite a few years to completely understand life and death.

	26-10-2004 04:09									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Depends of their age. When they're 2 or something, no they can't. It takes quite a few years to completely understand life and death.

Well, come up with a few cases of two year olds who were euthanised here then, if you really want to support your case with outrageous exegerations.

	26-10-2004 04:14									#359
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Well, come up with a few cases of two year olds who were euthanised here then, if you really want to support your case with outrageous exegerations.

I have no idea whether it happened in the Netherlands, and it is not the topic of my posts. To me it is a question of principle, more than of whether it already exists or not: death should be firmly in the hands of the individual. That's why I support Euthanasia so much, and that's why I oppose "suggested" euthanasia* just as strongly.

*By "suggested" euthanasia, read every euthanasia which was basically decided by the doctor, the heirs, the parents, or anybody who could confuse the sick as they are weakened.

	26-10-2004 04:14									#360
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As usual, religious people and conservatives are full of ****

I'll show myself out .