22-10-2004 21:02									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If neo-conservatism hadn't spectacularly flamed out in Iraq, there's be a future for me in politics.

You could always be a Liberal. It's the same ideaology after all.

quote: And I think wikipedia's view on Neo-conservatism falls into the same trap.

So edit it. That's what the cap pile that is wikipedia is there for.

	22-10-2004 21:05									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And I think wikipedia's view on Neo-conservatism falls into the same trap. Neo-conservatism was never meant to be a domestic policy, but always a foriegn policy. It has always meant that we must support democracy around the world, not by debate and diplomats, but by force. We should get rid of dictators who will not reform and be democratic.

well that makes them angelic and worthy of being in control of the military machine
Anyway they support dictators too - it just depends on what kind of dictator you are and how much you are willing to give them.

But if you add to this their own admissions about the world they want to create and how to do it - you end up just the jackboots and red-arm bands short of a fascist regime. really you do.

Anti-democratic. Pro elitist. Anti-freedom of the indiviual. all equal neo-conservitive.

	22-10-2004 21:09									#63
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If you're going to quote him, the least you could do would be to actually read his posts or at least bone up on what Liberal IR states.

	22-10-2004 21:20									#64
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quote: So edit it. That's what the cap pile that is wikipedia is there for

Too much work.

quote: If you're going to quote him, the least you could do would be to actually read his posts or at least bone up on what Liberal IR states.

Eh... I think I'm done in this discussion anyway. He's already made up his mind that Neo-Conservatives (and I guess Liberals, then) are anti-democratic, pro-elitist, and anti-freedom of the individual. And nothing will shake that from him.

Funny, but I've never been refered to as anti-freedom of the individual before . I will admit to the elitist thing though .

	22-10-2004 21:21									#65
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I've always said you were too nice to be a republican.

	22-10-2004 21:22									#66
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You'd make a fine Tory MikeH.

	22-10-2004 21:25									#67
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I've reported that offensive post to the moderators DinoDoc.

	22-10-2004 21:30									#68
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You could always be a Liberal. It's the same ideaology after all.

Won't work. Conservatives will trash me for my commie past. I need to be a conserative, cuz liberals won't attack me for that.

	22-10-2004 21:30									#69
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I've always said you were too nice to be a republican.

Democrats can be Neo-Conservatives too . And some are and have been.

	22-10-2004 21:32									#70
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You're too nice to be a Democrat too.

	22-10-2004 21:33									#71
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Neo-Cons aren't conservative. They're Liberal. The closest you could come to finding a Conservative in IR would be Realism and even that wouldn't hold most of the time.

	22-10-2004 21:33									#72
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Anti-democratic. Pro elitist. Anti-freedom of the indiviual. all equal neo-conservitive.

That's not neo-conservatism. That's good old fashioned conserativesm.

Neo-conservatism is pro-democracy, pro-elitist, pro-freedom. It favors the spread of democracy by force.

	22-10-2004 21:50									#73
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Which is its particular insanity.

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 21:53									#74
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It has a Millsian logic. If more people would die under a vicious dictatorship, then the difference between the people you kill in the war and the people who will live better and longer lives under a democracy are a net good.

	22-10-2004 21:58									#75
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I understand that. The problem is the theory and the actual execution of that theory are two different things. Plus, since most people wouldn't sign on for it (too expensive, bloody, and generally messy), one must lie to them to drag them along.

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 22:00									#76
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Had the Iraq occupation been handled correctly, instead of trying to do it on the cheap, then I'm sure many people would be arguing otherwise today.

	22-10-2004 22:06									#77
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Hmm. Here's what I think on that:

In order to really believe that you can and should spread democracy via military intervention, you have to be just a tad cocky. Hubris required, I think. Hence the idea we could do it with the troop numbers we used.

Second, part of it goes back to the issue of convincing the people (US) to go along with it. Not only must you find alternate justifications (WMD), but also you must not make the price tag too high. And make is sound easy.

Third, bungling clearly happened, but in my view when you take on something of this scale, you're bound to bungle some things. Bush's crew are probably worse than the "average" administration, but there still would have been major issues.

-Arrian

	23-10-2004 01:13									#78
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH You're too nice to be a Democrat too.

Hmmm... that leaves the grey area of 'Independant' .

quote: Neo-conservatism is pro-democracy, pro-elitist, pro-freedom. It favors the spread of democracy by force.

Indeed! While not necessarily a neo-conservative view, it'd be great, IMO, for the UN to have a neo-con view and topple vicious dictatorships around the world and then work to install democracy. I'd love for some country to say that the Burmese government has had its day in the sun.

	23-10-2004 16:40									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: So edit it. That's what the cap pile that is wikipedia is there for Too much work. quote: If you're going to quote him, the least you could do would be to actually read his posts or at least bone up on what Liberal IR states. Eh... I think I'm done in this discussion anyway. He's already made up his mind that Neo-Conservatives (and I guess Liberals, then) are anti-democratic, pro-elitist, and anti-freedom of the individual. And nothing will shake that from him. Funny, but I've never been refered to as anti-freedom of the individual before . I will admit to the elitist thing though .

OK i'm done too, and i apologise if i've come across as pig-headed, but i was reacting to what was to me new revelations about who and what neo-con means.
I've only known about some of their key beliefs in these past few days - they have kept them hidden quite well from public view i guess?

And this is the crux of the arguement for me and why i cant even begin to comprehend some of your viewpoints expressed:

1. I dont care about any political movement/parties other views if even one of them contains even the hint of intolarence that can lead to or smells close to an infringement on our basic freedoms.

And no-one here has shown me any proof that part of the neo-con/staussian philosophy DOESN'T say that the problem with (the american) society is the belief of the individual in their personel freedom. This by itself should make any pro-democratic individual run away from the ideology fast.
Look we've fought 2 world wars to get this freedom for all - so just because there has been a few hiccups on the way(talking about the straussians view of the failiure of the liberal dream), doesn't mean we should just give up trying to make the world a better place for all.

2. RL IS NOT a game of CIV3. You just cant spread democracy by conqouring/invading other countries - its a fantasy. And here is why, unlike in a game of CIV3, where you can bomb attack another nation as much as you like and eventualy it yours and as game time goes by it becomes a peaceful part fo your empire; in RL people dont forget what was done to them, ever. No where in the world too my knowledge has that ever happend.
And the novel answer to the problem is really rather easy.
If you really want to spread Democracy around the world - just be fair with other countries, treat them respectfuly, be magnanomous in your generosity. Teach them by example to come around to your idea's. It might not be easy but it will work. Killing innocent people does not spread the good name of democracy - it does the complete opposite.

Again this idea of active military intervention(ie killing the people you say you want to convert) in other countires is a key ideology of the neo-con/straussian idea.

Oh by the way the only way this MIGHT work is if you kill the whole race of people you want to change. Its called genocide and can be quite an effective method

3. Creating a society of fear. Which is what we have now, and is the product of both the neo-cons AND the muslim extremists, and is a tradegy for our world.

Again this is plainly admitted by the founding members of the neo-con movement as a means of exerting politial control.

As i learn more about neo-conseritism i'm sure i'll find more, BUT for me as a real beliver in the freedom of the individual and a supporter of a true democracy and the power of the majority to decide its fate, just these three KEY points that struassian and now neo-conservitism stand for is enough for me to now see it for what it is.

Dont get me wrong i'm sure there are some really progressive and great idea's within the neo-con movement, but really i dont think the neo-cons can get away from these unsavory componants of their beliefs, and it will be their downfall - just as happend to Germany in the 1940's.

So lets all grow up a bit - we live in a big world now, with many nations and you simply can't fight and win against them all. Its as simple as that. But thanks for the discussion and the links - i've enjoyed seeing it for what it is

	23-10-2004 20:22									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Neo-conservatism is pro-democracy, pro-elitist, pro-freedom. It favors the spread of democracy by force.

If neo-conservatism favours democracy, this trait is certainly not backed by neo-cons in action.

	23-10-2004 20:57									#81
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Exactly. Neo-conservatism just looks like a pathetic ideological excuse for continued imperialism.

	23-10-2004 21:02									#82
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor The next and final part is next wednesday at 9pm on bbc2.

I'll try not to miss it

	23-10-2004 21:25									#83
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quote: Lynne Cheney, wife of Vice President Richard 'Dick' Cheney; critic of academic critics of the second Bush administration, best known for having expressed shame about her daughter's sexuality.

Gee, this is obviously unbiased.

	24-10-2004 00:07									#84
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quote: If neo-conservatism favours democracy, this trait is certainly not backed by neo-cons in action.

I didn't realize that Bill Kristol was elected President . Many neo-cons were trying to persuade Bush (who isn't really a neo-con) to take out Saddam from before 9/11. It wasn't for the oil (that's interest based politics), but to take out a brutal dictator.

Kosovo almost became a neo-con war when Republicans AND Democrats wanted to make the removal of Milosevic one of our goals during that war. Unfortunetly the Clinton administration did not accept that... but it was ok, because the war, I believe, led to the events that happened less than a year later, when the people threw out Milo.

I do realize we are overstreched, but some force against Sudan or Burma would be much appreciated by me, and most other neo-cons as well.

	25-10-2004 18:41									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If neo-conservatism favours democracy, this trait is certainly not backed by neo-cons in action. I didn't realize that Bill Kristol was elected President . Many neo-cons were trying to persuade Bush (who isn't really a neo-con) to take out Saddam from before 9/11. It wasn't for the oil (that's interest based politics), but to take out a brutal dictator. Kosovo almost became a neo-con war when Republicans AND Democrats wanted to make the removal of Milosevic one of our goals during that war. Unfortunetly the Clinton administration did not accept that... but it was ok, because the war, I believe, led to the events that happened less than a year later, when the people threw out Milo. I do realize we are overstreched, but some force against Sudan or Burma would be much appreciated by me, and most other neo-cons as well.

Well if i could actualy believe that this was the main aims of the neo-cons that are calling the shots in your current Republican party, then i could be more sympathetic to the neo-con cause.

Still it does make me think that within the neo-cons you also have divisions over the parts of your ideology you believe in.

I'm sure you would be a moderate neo-con, say in comparison to Wolfavitz/Cheney/Rumsfeild etc
In terms of american politics i dont know what i'd label myself, but i dont believe in huge beuracracy or high taxes to support it(thats on the Republican side?), but i believe in trying to create a fair society based on tolarence and a foriegn policy that trys to work with the rest of the world(which would be liberal i guess?).

And any of the people in the current admin should take care that what removed Milo in kosova wont happen to them when more people realise their agenda.
The decent people in this world will win and make a better future than the hate mongers

And yes ref being overstretched - hopefully this will prove to those deluded guys in power that if the greatest military machine in our current world, gets more than its hands full over one tin-pot dictator it has absolutely no chance in its desires to take over the rest of the 'evil' world. So good news for a democratic and progressive and peaceful world

	25-10-2004 19:42									#86
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Rumsfield is generally not considered a neo-con by most knowledgable observers. I realize in Britain and elsewhere, neo-con has become synonamous with American foreign policy and conservatism in general, but that's like saying any dictatorship is just fascism. There are real differences in ideology betwen cons and neo-cons.

	25-10-2004 19:46									#87
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He's not listening to you people in any meaningful way that I can see. Why do you insist on beating your head against an obvious brick wall.

	25-10-2004 19:49									#88
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Same reason I argue with MendaciousLight, to keep others from thinking he might be making a valid point.

	25-10-2004 19:50									#89
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Rumsfield is generally not considered a neo-con by most knowledgable observers. I realize in Britain and elsewhere, neo-con has become synonamous with American foreign policy and conservatism in general, but that's like saying any dictatorship is just fascism. There are real differences in ideology betwen cons and neo-cons.

Well ok, but its really just splitting hairs as he is seen to promote the neo-conservitive cause and ideology. He looks like one to me as well

Anyway he was on the list Imran gave me on wikipedia, and as an ignorant brit that was good enough for me

Are you not worried about the connotations of the neo-con agenda in the republican party?

	25-10-2004 19:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Same reason I argue with MendaciousLight, to keep others from thinking he might be making a valid point.

True dat.