21-10-2004 18:03									#1
	why 911 happend. Documentary on UK tv last night. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Did anyone from the uk see that BBC2 documentary that was on at 9pm last night? It was called 'The power of nightmares', and gave a very insitefull look at the rise of terror in our world today.

A brief description from their website:

"The Power of Nightmares
Wed 20 Oct, 9:00 pm - 10:00 pm 60mins

Baby It's Cold Outside

In the past our politicians offered us dreams of a better world. Now they promise to protect us from nightmares. The most frightening of these is the threat of an international terror network. But just as the dreams weren't true, neither are these nightmares.

This series shows dramatically how the idea that we are threatened by a hidden and organised terrorist network is an illusion. It is a myth that has spread unquestioned through politics, the security services and the international media. At the heart of the story are two groups: the American neoconservatives and the radical Islamists. Both were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world. These two groups have changed the world but not in the way either intended. Together they created today's nightmare vision of an organised terror network. A fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and authority in a disillusioned age. Those with the darkest fears became the most powerful.

The rise of the Politics of Fear begins in 1949 with two men whose radical ideas would inspire the attack of 9/11 and influence the neoconservative movement that dominates Washington. Both these men believed that modern liberal freedoms were eroding the bonds that held society together. The two movements they inspired set out, in their different ways, to rescue their societies from this decay. But in an age of growing disillusion with politics, the neoconservatives turned to fear in order to pursue their vision. They would create a hidden network of evil run by the Soviet Union that only they could see. The Islamists were faced by the refusal of the masses to follow their dream and began to turn to terror to force the people to 'see the truth'. "

I found it probably the most interesting thing that's been on tv for ages. Made me think quite hard, which is a good thing

The next and final part is next wednesday at 9pm on bbc2.
And i'm keeping both on video to show all my friends if they missed it - it really is that important and relevent

	21-10-2004 18:37									#2
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quote: the neoconservatives turned to fear in order to pursue their vision. They would create a hidden network of evil run by the Soviet Union that only they could see.

The point being that the Soviet Union was, in fact, all sweetness and light?

I'm no fan of the neocons, don't get me wrong, but that particular line (which is constructed specifically to set up the Neocons & OBL & Co. as mirror images) sets off a warning flare in my mind.

-Arrian

	21-10-2004 18:39									#3
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It happened cause some bastards flew some planes into some buildings. Short film I gather.

	21-10-2004 18:40									#4
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It's a three part series not two. (And they better be repeating it soon as I'm going to miss next weeks episode) and was strange to see the CIA and Kissinger portrayed as the Good guys in the story.

it was interesting to watch rumsfeld trotting out exactly the same lines about the USSR as he did about Iraq using completely false and made up intelegence.

his Report about Russian Submarines was particularly enlightening. Their Sonar was rubbish, so Rumsfields Cronies decided that the Russians must have another way of detecting submarines that was so high tech we had no way of detecting it.

Next weeks episode is all about how the CIA and the Islamic Fundamentalists won in Afghanistan.

the Final episode is about the current situation.

Among other things that will be in the program are the non-existence of Al-Quaida!
(It was an organisation invented by American Prosecutors so an individual could be prosecuted under the American RICO powers)
Dirty Bombs are hardly more effective than an equivalent weight of High explosive.
(The calculation of fatalities to make them scary had to assume that nobody would move out of the contaminated zone for over a year and that there would be no attempt to clean up afterwards!)

Guardian article on series

	21-10-2004 18:46									#5
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quote: The point being that the Soviet Union was, in fact, all sweetness and light?

No the point was that the Neocons had an idea that these terrorist networks were allpart of a sooviet conspiracy.

William Casey read a book about this written by the neocons and said to more junior CIA people that this was what was going on.

they pointed out that 70% of the book was Black propaganda that they had invented to keep other states onside during the cold war. they even brought out the operations guys who had invented the propaganda.

Casey refused to listen because he had an almost religious belief in the book

	21-10-2004 18:48									#6
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Why not just title the thread "Hey Imran! I wish to troll you! Do you accept?"

	21-10-2004 18:52									#7
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The last BBC documentary, that came to me in form of a book, was a conspiration theory, that Jesus' execution was a fake made up by the Romans, that he survived and fled to France together with Joseph of Arimathia, that the term Holy Grail = Saint Graal comes from "Sang Royal" = blood of the king, and that Jesus became progenitor of the Merovingian stirps, thus stating, that the claim of the European monarchs to be descendants of God is correct.

This made me somewhat reluctant to believe in later BBC documentaries.

	21-10-2004 19:03									#8
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs No the point was that the Neocons had an idea that these terrorist networks were allpart of a sooviet conspiracy. William Casey read a book about this written by the neocons and said to more junior CIA people that this was what was going on. they pointed out that 70% of the book was Black propaganda that they had invented to keep other states onside during the cold war. they even brought out the operations guys who had invented the propaganda. Casey refused to listen because he had an almost religious belief in the book

Yes this was the bit i found most illuminating, and **** scary at the same time!
On top of that the students of the guy who wrote that book, all of them were completely open and un repentant about the neo-cons objectives - that of ruling by terror, even if that terror has to be manufactured in the first place!
I really have to laugh now whenever i see 'any' republican on tv now talking about freedom - thats probably the last thing they represent it seems :shakeshead:
In fact it now makes me wonder if the democrats have been tainted by any of this same poison - hah! is it democracy at all you have to ask.
I only hope people in the Usa can get to see this program. Something VERY wrong is going on in their country
And equaly the guys on the other side need to also do some re-thinking.
Its kinda like the nuclear arms race all over again - just much more subtle ,sinister and less black and white

	21-10-2004 19:23									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The last BBC documentary, that came to me in form of a book, was a conspiration theory, that Jesus' execution was a fake made up by the Romans, that he survived and fled to France together with Joseph of Arimathia, that the term Holy Grail = Saint Graal comes from "Sang Royal" = blood of the king, and that Jesus became progenitor of the Merovingian stirps, thus stating, that the claim of the European monarchs to be descendants of God is correct. This made me somewhat reluctant to believe in later BBC documentaries.

I missed that one - sounds like a blast, and who knows

Anyway i was slightly sceptical before watching this program, it did sound like it was going to be geared to a particular audience.
Still if the core elements of the documentary are true, then it has to be in the interest of a free world(after all that is how we want to live right?), to understand the future both the neo-cons AND the muslim extremists are helping create. The Irony being that it is probably the last thing either of them really want.
Still its amazing the power of a book can have - maybe we should burn all books


Oh and i know this thread will encourage certain people to throw scorn, still i would argue that this program reveals certain things that are worth considering - if someone who actualy saw it can come up with equaly compelling evidence to counter the points made by the various people interviewd in the film, then i'd be happy to listen

Maybe it was a democratic party 'bribe' that got the film made and all the interviewed people were plants? So i've already thought of that one for you

I'm going to watch it again and take some notes and post more specific details later, like the names of the two men that the documentary claims started the ball rolling in 1949 and all the other fun things it claimed

	21-10-2004 19:47									#10
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The BBc make documentaries that go against common sense all the time, I'm afraid. The last one I watched espoused a theory that dinosaurs were not wiped out by an asteroid/ meteor/ comet, but that they are open-minded does not mean I will close my mind to their shows.

	21-10-2004 19:54									#11
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what do the Brits know about american politics

remember the democrats (who aren't neo conservatives) were against the spread of communism from the Soviet Union as well. One reason they sent troops to S. Vietnam.

	21-10-2004 19:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I missed that one - sounds like a blast, and who knows

Oh, it's a great laugh! Other details I remember are, that the whore Maria Magdalena was Jesus' wife, that he had children, that one of them was Barabbas, the murderer who was to be crucified together with Jesus, but was pardonned by the crowd of Jews, that Barabbas means "Bar Rabbas" = son of the Rabbi, that the rightful keepers of this secrets are the Freemasons (who else?) and a mysterious organization named Prieuree de Zion (sp?), which comes from a lost branch of the Merovinian kings and the true ruler of the world, since it controls all politicians.

I gave it to my father (who is Atheist like me), and when he returned it to me he said, Atheism, Shmateism, but THIS IS HERESY!

	21-10-2004 20:06									#13
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Mary Magdalene being Jesus wife is a very common theory, as is the idea that therefore he might have had children.

The rest of it sounds like the plot of The Da Vinci code?

	21-10-2004 20:07									#14
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Who was Mary Magdalene anyways? I never understood religion. I thought Mary was Jesus' mother. How can she be his mother and wife? It's not like they live in West Virginia.

	21-10-2004 20:08									#15
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Don't remember the mentionning of Da Vinci. It's a pretty old book (about 10 years I think). Maybe time to read it again.

	21-10-2004 20:09									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Who was Mary Magdalene anyways? I never understood religion. I thought Mary was Jesus' mother. How can she be his mother and wife? It's not like they live in West Virginia.

There's more than one woman with the name Mary.

	21-10-2004 20:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph There's more than one woman with the name Mary.

that explains it

	21-10-2004 20:11									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Don't remember the mentionning of Da Vinci. It's a pretty old book (about 10 years I think). Maybe time to read it again.

Da Vinci was allegedly a Grand Master of the Priory of Sion.

	21-10-2004 20:12									#19
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Two Mary's one was his mother. The other, Mary Magdalene was a follower of his. There are a few other gospels (not included when they put the bible together) that name her as another disciple, perhaps his favourite disciple, perhaps his wife. It's not a new idea, but the recent success of the Da Vinci Code has people talking about it again - despite Dan Brown's book being fictional, some of the concepts he talks about are quite common theological topics.

	21-10-2004 20:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The point being that the Soviet Union was, in fact, all sweetness and light? I'm no fan of the neocons, don't get me wrong, but that particular line (which is constructed specifically to set up the Neocons & OBL & Co. as mirror images) sets off a warning flare in my mind. -Arrian

The point being that the SU had no intent to go directly against America. America is the catalyst of the Cold War.

	21-10-2004 20:13									#21
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I can't see Jesus not hitting it. Unless he was gay.

	21-10-2004 20:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident what do the Brits know about american politics remember the democrats (who aren't neo conservatives) were against the spread of communism from the Soviet Union as well. One reason they sent troops to S. Vietnam.

Well we are learning i guess And dont let the bit about the 'communist plot to fund terror is a lie' thing put you off, as this isn't what the documentary was pointing out in the context.
As was posted by the_ceebs, what it was about was that the Head of the CIA at the time had read this book, and it became his bible, so much so that when members of the CIA pointed out to him that much of what he was warning about(massive russian influence in terrorist networks all over the world), had actualy been invented by the CIA before he had come to be incharge of it!

It wasn't saying the rusians at the time were not involved in such things - just that the scale of the problem had been a CIA invention(black-ops). And much of the ealry Neo-con theories about how best to rule a free society(ie america), were coloured by this fabricated view of an external threat of this magnitude.

So yes russians were doing bad things as were both the uk and Usa at this time.

I'll do the research on the program and assuming i'm not dissapeared by the men in black, i'll put much more detail here. I find the whole thing a complete threat to democracy, and books like 1984 and all that stuff now looks like its just around the corner - unless of course we good people of the world try to stop it

EDIT: And i nearly forgot! I would have thought the democrats were not with the Neo-cons in any sense, but its when you find out the stuff that was in this program then it does make you question general policy of those we vote to govern us. IF even half of what this documentary is claiming is true, its quite a damning blow to the republican cause. But also i would be interested to know how far this philiosophy has spread through all american(and british!) politics over the last decade?

	21-10-2004 20:23									#23
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The execution of Jesus is described as fake (as I mentionned). The sponge with vinegar, that was given to him when he said, "I am thirsty" contained some barbiturate. The Bible writes, soon after he got the "vinegar" he said his famous "Eli Eli lama asabthani" (I knew that some Apolytoner has his filthy hands in it - now where are you Eli??) and "died" = fell unconscious. This is very important, because otherwise by Roman law his legs would have been broken, which would have sealed his fate, because he would have suffocated from the pressure to his chest within minutes.

	21-10-2004 20:24									#24
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quote: The last BBC documentary, that came to me in form of a book, was a conspiration theory, that Jesus' execution was a fake made up by the Romans, that he survived and fled to France together with Joseph of Arimathia, that the term Holy Grail = Saint Graal comes from "Sang Royal" = blood of the king, and that Jesus became progenitor of the Merovingian stirps, thus stating, that the claim of the European monarchs to be descendants of God is correct.

Ahh I've seen that, it's part of a 2 part Horizon special from the 70's/80's the first part is a rundown on the theories of some obscure french nationalists and poets from the 1960's and runs pretty much as you said

the second part runs to how its all complete bollocks and that the people involved have a history of fraud and theft. strangely more new age and religious channels only ever show the first part

(my favourite of those is the Erich Von Daniken special had a group of us Crying with laughter at how bad the con was with old erich)

	21-10-2004 20:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph ......edit.... and that Jesus became progenitor of the Merovingian stirps, thus stating, that the claim of the European monarchs to be descendants of God is correct. This made me somewhat reluctant to believe in later BBC documentaries.

Well our true Monarch is actually now living in Australia and is a sheep farmer! channel4link

i dont know if he claims descent from jesus though? but is kinda heresy

sometimes the truth hurts

	21-10-2004 20:37									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The point being that the Soviet Union was, in fact, all sweetness and light?

No, but they weren't out to destroy the West either. They've wanted detante since Stalin choked the revolution in its crib.

	21-10-2004 20:41									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why not just title the thread "Hey Imran! I wish to troll you! Do you accept?"

Because the answer would be no . Continue on though... I'm sure some people here think the USSR were actually nice people. Oh, that Stalin, what a pal .

	21-10-2004 20:42									#28
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No-one said that the Soviets were good - maybe you should re-read all the posts. The point is claims that some people massively exaggerated their capabilities in order to scare people into accepting their neocon policies.

Totally different issue.

	21-10-2004 20:45									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident remember the democrats (who aren't neo conservatives)

Not true... Scoop Jackson was considered a big neo-con and he was a Democrat. In fact, he was head of the DNC for a while.

	21-10-2004 20:45									#30
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH No-one said that the Soviets were good - maybe you should re-read all the posts. The point is claims that some people massively exaggerated their capabilities in order to scare people into accepting their neocon policies. Totally different issue.

Which I interpret into meaning the Soviets weren't that bad... which I still think is foolish. If anything they were worse.