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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:20
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Recently, PAL requested an 'Urgent chat' to discuss several issues, particularly as relating to the upcoming invasion timing.
This chat took place around Friday 0200 GMT, or something like mid-evening Thursday in the US. It was attended on the Apolyton side by all Three Consuls (OctX, Togas and I), MoI GodKing and Kloreep. On the PAL side were current President Friedrich-Psitalon, MoI Heroic and Maxfin
Here is a list of the main information in the chat:
Exploration
- PAL asked whether we knew anything about a connection to the other continent immediately north of us, as they suspected this due to 'multiple sealanes' seen West of their southernmost city Crudetown. Initially we only mentioned one of the islands we had seen, but by the end of the chat both islands and their sizes (3 tiles and 8 tiles) were mentioned. Looking at the map there is certainly no space for even a reasonable sized island where PAL thought there could be one.
- We asked about the island spotted to the far north of PAL. They have not investigated it, but there is a Curragh headed that way now.
Cooperation eg tech, lux, borders
- We told PAL we are 31 turns from Currency as we have been saving cash to upgrade with.
- PAL asked us again to use Bonehed to attach wines for them. We told them that is exactly where he's headed now, and estimated that we would have wines to them by around the end of Anarchy (5-6 turns hopefully).
- PAL will for the time being honour the agreement (unspoken until now I guess) to not settle in the disputed zone. They are concentrating their thoughts on the area to their SE, although there are numerous Barb camps there.
- PAL is currently hoping to do the Gunpowder part of the Medieval tech tree, partly to offset their worry at not having Iron, and tentatively suggested that we head for Caravels.
- PAL asked that we give them Iron once or twice in the Medieval Era for upgrading to Knights 'in case something scary happens'. We said that was our intention.
- PAL would like Bonehed back when we are finished, as they have a lack of workers and a surfeit of projects (I'll bet!)
The Invasion
- FP has been granted strike powers by PAL if CDG goes into Anarchy or gets Masonry, otherwise we will run to our timetable
- When it was realised we have one more turn until a Swordman is built, we decided (GodKing and I) that once this Sword is done we will go into Anarchy to change to Republic, so we can hopefully be in Republic when the war starts, and hence with some luck a Republic GA. So this happens NEXT TURN.
PAL Matters and Plans
- PAL is planning to deal with the barb uprising associated with the change of eras, but cannot do so until the war is over due to troop commitments
- PAL is intending on going into Anarchy 'next', and reported this would be in turn 87
- PAL is set to finish Construction in 6 turns, and is wary of changing eras due to the barb uprising, but does not want to be researching nothing in their GA
And finally two things worth thinking about....
PAL suspicions
- PAL suspects that cooperation on the other continent might not be as great as generally thought. They point to how late Philosophy was gained here, and how a concerted effort from the other continent could have beaten us to it.
- PAL reports that their Literacy rate (in Demographics) has gone from 1st to 2nd to 4th to 2nd at times, and they are concerned, primarily because of the 4th. They have a wild suspicion that CDG may have contacted the other continent and be trading with them (eg for Literacy). They also report having lost track of a CDG Curragh to their SE in the past.
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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Ok, what happened in the chat to cause this reponse from FP?
They are our allies. Even if we have "doubts" we need to treat them like full allies and not pussyfoot around. FP makes a great many good points; let's give them every reason to trust us and show full cooperation. Shall we?
quote:
Gentlemen of Apolyton:
After our previous discussion, there is considerable… discontent… on our team regarding the comments of one of your leaders. While we recognize that this alliance is absolutely essential to our mutual success, we are growing concerned at the tone and attitude being displayed. There is a growing feeling amongst PAL that APO is asking for quite a few things, and returning very little, and while this is something we could tolerate – we do, after all, have very much to give – we find the attitude responding to our generosity to be most disheartening.
PAL recognizes that a fair land solution is important for both our nations, but clearly a difference in what we both consider fair is occurring. Rather than allow the rash and ill-considered attacking statements of one brash individual to endanger our alliance in the manner that nearly occurred in the night prior, we have decided to enter into this discourse, at least initially, via correspondence.
PAL’s feeling of discontent that we are doing all the “giving” and precious little of the “receiving” so far – which leads to our more firm stance on land apportionment – stems from the following concerns:
1) The road to Meeting Mountain; originally, we agreed that this was to be the place where our trade roads met. When Apolyton was unable to fulfill their half of the road, we simply stepped in and continued it. Our assistance was then called a suspected precursor to war on your empire, which was both stunning and insulting at the same time, especially since this was something we originally had agreed to – and so we agreed and suggested the establishment of sentinels. The result? Our workers are blockaded for a turn by an Apolyton archer, and are left to bumble about like fools in CDG’s land.
2) We have, even from the earliest stages, made it clear that luxuries are a high priority item for us. Imagine our significant bewilderment to discover that not only are your wines within range of your cities – but they are in range of your CAPITAL – and that a single worker’s devotion - even one worker - over a span of 25 turns or so post-capital expansion in preparation for the arrival of our road would have accomplished all needed tasks. To be sure, our industrious and agricultural nature is an advantage, but it is very bewildering indeed to find that in the time we can drive a road through some 10 tiles of forest and jungle from the southern edge of our empire to acquire a second silk for your own post-anarchy use, you are unable to add one more length of road to the road extending from the very center of your empire.
3) You requested the purchase (which was actually a gifting) of Bonehed for purposes of using him for an iron colony, so that you could more rapidly acquire iron. While the wines are within 1 turn of their capital and could be easily linked, instead you send Bonehed to help road out to iron that gets connected some 8-10 turns before it is even needed for upgrades. Bonehed is not used for a colony, but rather continues working for Apolyton until PAL finally points out that they have been watching the F3 screen and know the iron is connected and that Bonehed is still alive. This is a curious dichotomy of signals, to be sure.
4) You know – and encourage – the adventure of sea exploration, that we may more rapidly locate our foes across the ocean. We have taken to this endeavor in our usual robust fashion, and when we immediately report any findings to you – and consider drastic action with our boats to investigate our findings – we discover that you in fact have already known about the existence of these islands, and have known about MORE THAN ONE such for some time! If we had not asked, when would this information have been delivered? If we had instead suicided a galley out to check out the location, how awkward would the situation have been if we had discovered your curraghs blocking our way to coast, and then sunk? Immediate and direct transmission of useful information is PAL’s credo and stance – and yet again, a curious dichotomy of signals is transmitted by APO.
5) Immediately after revealing that you in fact are aware of these islands – and in a truly aggressive fashion – we are “told,” rather than asked or negotiated, that we should expect that Apolyton will fill in all the land in the disputed zone. Apolyton’s position on this subject has never changed in a single iota; while PAL does not claim to be masters of diplomacy and negotiation, we have always been under the impression that negotiation involves both sides compromising until a mutually agreeable solution has been reached. We have also been under the impression that diplomacy is the art of exchange, not of dictation – and yet in chat, we were dictated to, and in a very condescending fashion, by one of your leaders. So if we are to understand all of APO’s current wishes, we are requested to send you settlers – which we are in fact willing to do – for multiple city sites, perhaps even to fill all of the disputed lands, and then give them to you? Would you like the loan of our Pyramids, while you are at it? We construct a road you may ably use for your own expansion (not to invade, which we have never shown the slightest interest in or disposition to do, despite unceasing paranoia on the subject from our allies, having only now begun mapping the very edges of your lands, while two of your units have long travelled ours), we offer to supply you with settlers to further your own growth, and we work tirelessly on your behalf – to clear CDG from their own lands to assist you and your own might with no other benefit to us than your good will and considerable expenditure of our own resources, and to ensure your own research efforts will be eased by not needing a luxury rate… and yet APO’s position on the disputed lands does not change. Truly, this is a curious dichotomy of signals.
These are our concerns; while we are certain you have a position of your own, when you examine our own view, looking out at the land of green, you can understand why we might feel a tad misused and mistreated when you are presented with an unwavering demand of land from your ally, particularly in the condescending terms that were used. We are indeed a proud nation, both of our accomplishments, and of our skill, and do not enjoy being treated like anyone’s “kid brother.” You must understand that the strength of PAL lies in its ability to expand and develop, and our entire game strategy is based on these principles – once everyone is “matured” in their city sizes and land, our advantage will only be that we have been there longer, and so have more of the benefits of our maturity. If we do not utilize our speed of maturation, we will find ourselves quickly the lesser contributor, and we would prefer to be equals.
PAL is, however, as always a nation of action and not merely requests or empty promises unkept. As we have in the past, we will continue in the future to back up our rhetoric with deeds of cooperation and trust. To this end, we have immediately:
Allotted a boat (LSS Kraaken) and unit (the warrior Cobra) to no other purpose but than to get an immediate and accurate tile count of the entire continent; currently, the only lands which remain unknown to us are your northwestern region and CDG’s region. We expect that with our renewed, aggressive effort to determine the particulars of our continent, tension over borders need not continue.
Acquired a precise tile count of all available land on our half of the disputed zone. Unfortunately UN rules prevent a precise revelation of this number, but we will be able to, precisely accurately, draw such a line once CDG’s and your northwestern lands are known. We estimate that these regions will become completely known to us in 10-12 turns at most.
Detailed a boat to immediately determine the worth of the unknown northern island; if it is found to be valuable in any way, we will immediately inform you – as is our custom with all information.
Gentlemen of Apolyton: As always, the fate of our alliance requires equally the participation and trust, the words AND deeds, of both partners. Here again, as in the past, PAL is offering both words and deeds, and offering our full, equal participation, and even our trust in revealing in full detail to you our concerns. We trust that you will understand that our intent here is not to threaten, but to make clear why we are displeased both with the tone of specific leaders, and with the apparently immovability of Apolyton on certain issues. We are certain that with equal participation and trust, you will be able to resolve our concerns, as we made a point of doing when such a letter was sent by you to us, when we responded as you requested - with both words and deeds.
We now await your words, and we await your deeds.
With continued respect and optimism for the future of our most noble alliance,
The People of the Army of the Ladder
____________________________________
Friedrich Psitalon,
President Term 3, People's Army of the Ladder
Science is for those who learn; poetry, for those who know.
-Joseph Roux, "Meditations of a Parish Priest"
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ormuzd
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It's too late to stop this. We should just continue with our goals and not leave PAL take what they want.
I didn't participate in the chat and and didn't read a log but only a summary. But if it is true they want to reconsider about the isles i think we should be upset not they.
It is their problem they don't know what surrounds them. they have the greatest army, the biggest cities, the largest population and they were not able to devote one warrior to scout us while we have found two to do this.
We offer them what we feel right and want much more from us than they should. And at the end we are the unfair. What do they want? To tell them "OK, go ahead, take all you want. Oh, no, the islands too. Why do we need islands? You really need more land and you are producing so much settlers. Of course we understand you can't build anything else".
No, we should continue with our ideas - war to CDG, SoZ, get most of what we think is fair. And some notes about PAL and their demands for the future (not only in this game).
By the way I find the letter of GodKing great and I don't even think it is too aggressive towards PAL.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:20
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Settle down guys! For some reason heckles are up when there's no need for them to be. Don't let anything PAL members (especially random non-leader ones) say faze you. Things have been tense for a little while due to a few disagreements, and PAL perceiving that we have been holding out information on them when they have been more forthcoming with us. IIRC this is exactly what was once feared that they would think - that we are a team that talks up without being seen as trustworthy due to our diplomacy style - and ironically it is the lack of diplomacy that has led us to these frustrations. I'm sorry for that - con has been away and I half by default took over some FAM stuff, but I have not succeeded at handling it all to date. I only hope I can help salvage this situation.
I remain convinced that once we have had the chance to properly compare PAL lands with our own to them and argue our case, perhaps agree to have a more open contact nature with them regarding eg exploration, then we will get what is right - the Uber split. Since we have not done so yet, this is not the time to start calling into question whether we can work with them successfully or not.
FP may seem argumentative and selfish, but he has shown he is not averse to reason, and we have good reasons. Before we seriously consider anything rash and unplanned, at least give me and GK and con the chance to (if possible) chat or at least share some emails with him and PAL to try to explain our position on matters.
What we need to do now IMO is find out exactly how to rectify these mistakes without compromising what we believe in, and communicate the same to PAL so that they may do the same. If things break down in spite of this, then we can consider whether we have an insurmountable problem, or just a nervous clash of ideals in the early stages of the alliance.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:20
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This was in the last email from PAL, posted above
quote:
Acquired a precise tile count of all available land on our half of the disputed zone. Unfortunately UN rules prevent a precise revelation of this number, but we will be able to, precisely accurately, draw such a line once CDG’s and your northwestern lands are known. |
I have just been looking at the UN rules, and they aren't too complex, just over-wordy. The relevant section is this one:
quote:
1.6 - Invalid Map Trading
Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade any sort of map, whether it be a screen shot, minimap, hand drawing, or any other 'picture' of the in-game map, mini-map, or embassy screenshot before the requisite tech is discovered. Verbal/text descriptions are allowed, but coordinates are not.
Definition: A team creating screen shots, drawings, or other depictions of any part of the in-game map before the requisite tech has been discovered.
Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing maps to be traded before they are allowed in-game.
Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any map trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule.
Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (2-20 Turns)
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We do not need to swap maps or supply screenshots to put forward (and for PAL to put forward their) tile counts. Notice text descriptions are specifically allowed. This means we can give them our tile counts, and they can give us theirs. This will aid tremendously towards a conclusion on borders, perhaps our second-largest sticking point ATM.
I intend to email PAL with this discovery within 24 hours (allowing for comments here), and unless they have some reason to believe it means something it does not say, we can get started on this. If they do I may need to contact Admin FortyJ and ask for a ruling.
Personally I really look forward to seeing just how much they have hidden away in that SE area.... 
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:20
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quote:
To the Esteemed members of PAL.
First of all lets let cooler heads and cooler words prevail. We have put way to much effort into this alliance on both sides to let some misunderstandings between some of our team members come in the way of the allaince at this late date.
First of all on the land split. Here is an excerpt from your email:
QUOTE by F-P: "Unfortunately UN rules prevent a precise revelation of this number, but we will be able to, precisely accurately, draw such a line once CDG’s and your northwestern lands are known. We estimate that these regions will become completely known to us in 10-12 turns at most."
Here is the rules on that subject straight from the UN, QUOTE by FortyJ: "1.6 - Invalid Map Trading
Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade any sort of map, whether it be a screen shot, minimap, hand drawing, or any other 'picture' of the in-game map, mini-map, or embassy screenshot before the requisite tech is discovered. Verbal/text descriptions are allowed, but coordinates are not.
Definition: A team creating screen shots, drawings, or other depictions of any part of the in-game map before the requisite tech has been discovered.
Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing maps to be traded before they are allowed in-game.
Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any map trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule.
Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (2-20 Turns)"
NOTE THE BOLDED PART. We think that sharing tile counts is OK, at least that is our interpretation of this ridiculously large rule book 
My suggestion is to just share the tile counts that we each know of, north and south of a diagonal line NW/SE of meeting mountain. Lets leave the diagonal out of the tile counts and start from there. You give us the tile count north of the line and we give you the tile count south of the line. Lets leave the island tile counts separate since that now seems to be a bone of contention as well :sigh:
And F-P if I have to Ill dig up the corrospondence but we told you there was islands there ages ago. We have just recently gotten a ship up there to fully explore them. So at least cut us a little bit of slack on the island issue 
What do you guys think? Or are you willing to let this sit for another 10-12 turns until your exploration is complete?
The Bonehead issue is strictly my fault. As we continued planning for our expansion it became clear it made more sense to just build a city vice a colony. This of course all developed right before I left for Europe, when I simply did not have the time to let you guys know. My fault plain and simple and GodKing has been bugging the team to let you guys know about it for at least the last month or so in real time. We did however use Bonehead to complete the "Iron Road" that I might add is going to benefit both of us in this alliance. If you wish we can return Bonehead if that will generate some goodwill between the teams.
Lets start with these two issues and begin to rapidly repair some of the rifts caused by some of the misunderstandings with the chat last week.
Further more if there is some place where we could have a forum as F-P discussed a couple of weeks ago that would be great. I strongly recommend that we try and set one up as soon as possible. If your site did not work for that we can probably convince Master Zen to set us up a private forum at "Master Zen Online". Because it wont happen at Apoly. Let us know on that as well but its become very obvious to myself personnally that we need to communicate more.
And we need to communicate more as teams. Right now going strictly thru diplomatic channels is not working fast and effectively enough. Im a one man show in our FAM department and if I have to disappear for a while, it certainly hurts our communications. And there is a distinct possibility I may go back to Europe for THREE months after the first of the year.
Lets start with these issues and work from there.
conmcb25
Foriegn Affairs Minister for Apolyton. |
Thoughts on the proposed letter?
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23-10-2004 05:21
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