25-10-2004 22:31									#61
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The explosives as they are would be useless for making a nuke. They need to be formed into shaped charges with micrometer precision, which takes sophisticated tools and skills to use them.

They are as much WMD as a chunk of aluminium that could be used to make the bomb hull.

The explosives are probably excellent for guerilla and terrorist activities, though.

	25-10-2004 22:35									#62
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dammit, there Kerry goes talking about tests again... I wish he'd stop that.

	25-10-2004 22:39									#63
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http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/ar...0_24.php#003777

quote: What also emerges in the Nelson Report is that the Defense Department has been trying to keep this secret for some time. The DOD even went so far as to order the Iraqis not to inform the IAEA that the materials had gone missing. Informing the IAEA, of course, would lead to it becoming public knowledge in the United States.

From the Nelson Report:

quote: Since the explosives went missing last year, sources say DOD and other elements in the Administration sought to block the IAEA from officially reporting the problem, and also tried to stop the new Iraqi Interim Government from cooperating with the IAEA. But finally, on Oct. 10, the Iraqi’s formally notified the IAEA, and on Oct. 15, the IAEA formally notified the Bush Administration. In press guidance prepared for release in the event news got out, but not released until today, when requested by The Nelson Report, State Department spokesmen confirmed the Iraqi government and IAEA report dates, and that 350 tons of dual use high explosives could not be accounted for.

	25-10-2004 22:43									#64
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Bush

	25-10-2004 22:53									#65
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Four more years of lies, deceivements, and corruption!!




VOTE FOR BUSH!!

	25-10-2004 23:15									#66
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I'm just making sure, because I know the guy's not a fool... but Japher's posts in this thread are parody, right, like some of the posts from Drachasor, Mr. Fun and Boshko?

	25-10-2004 23:50									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Not alone, but with the evidence of all the other material that has been found since the "end of the war" it does raise some significant questions that should not just be dismissed as you all will hasten to so quickly. I'm not trying to formulate a conspiracy theory. However, when ALL the materials needed to make a nuclear weapon (ALL, not just some) are found to have existed in Iraq in a short time frame prior to the start of the war it really makes you wonder if there was something sinister going on.

Russia has ALL the materials to build a time machine except for the know-how.
Russia hates the United States.

Coincidence? I don't think so~!!11!!1

	25-10-2004 23:54									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Russia has ALL the materials to build a time machine except for the know-how. Russia hates the United States. Coincidence? I don't think so~!!11!!1

A chronosphere?

	25-10-2004 23:56									#69
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Ever wonder why the Soviets won the war?

	26-10-2004 01:08									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie The explosives as they are would be useless for making a nuke. They need to be formed into shaped charges with micrometer precision, which takes sophisticated tools and skills to use them. They are as much WMD as a chunk of aluminium that could be used to make the bomb hull. The explosives are probably excellent for guerilla and terrorist activities, though.

Yeah, boy what I could do with 380 tonz of explosives
Let me just open my anarchist cookbook and check

	26-10-2004 01:19									#71
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LINK

Five hundred metric tons (1,100,000 lbs) of milled uranium oxide (yellowcake, U3O8) stored at Saddam Hussein's al Tuwaitha nuclear weapons research laboratory near Baghdad could have been converted to enriched gaseous uranium hexafluoride, UF6. This amount of yellowcake could produce up to 142 nuclear weapons, prominent British physicist Norman Dombey has determined.


LINK

But it's been reported - albeit in a by-the-way fashion - by the New York Times and a handful of other media outlets. And one of Saddam's nuclear scientists, Jaffar Dhia Jaffar, admitted to the BBC earlier this year, "We had 500 tons of yellow cake [uranium] in Baghdad."

---

There is some truth to every rumor

Last edited by Japher on 26-10-2004 at 01:44

	26-10-2004 01:28									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Japher [url="http://www.talonnews.com/news/2004/august/0810_saddams_nukes.shtml]LINK[/url] Five hundred metric tons (1,100,000 lbs) of milled uranium oxide (yellowcake, U3O8) stored at Saddam Hussein's al Tuwaitha nuclear weapons research laboratory near Baghdad could have been converted to enriched gaseous uranium hexafluoride, UF6. This amount of yellowcake could produce up to 142 nuclear weapons, prominent British physicist Norman Dombey has determined. [url="http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/8/112447.shtml]LINK[/url] But it's been reported - albeit in a by-the-way fashion - by the New York Times and a handful of other media outlets. And one of Saddam's nuclear scientists, Jaffar Dhia Jaffar, admitted to the BBC earlier this year, "We had 500 tons of yellow cake [uranium] in Baghdad." --- There is some truth to every rumor

and for every rumor, there's a gullible dope willing to believe it

	26-10-2004 01:38									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Japher There is some truth to every rumor

You don't need to speculate on rumors- you can look at the facts as they exit:

ie. Saddam may have kept his desire to make WMD's, BUT the sanctions regime and UN monitoring had ended his programs.

Tjose Japher are the simple FACTS- Saddam may have retained a wish for WMD"s, but he had none, nor the ability to make them. Who says? Our own weapons inspectors after a year of investigation.

Do you have ANYTHING at all to doubt their findings?

	26-10-2004 01:45									#74
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First Japher trots out an Infoshop link, and now a Newsmax link.



See this is why you don't bring up Newsmax links. They get the facts absurdly wrong. If you look at the context of the quote, he said that they had the uranium before the first Gulf War. Jaffar actually has said that after the Gulf War, Saddam destroyed the program.

quote: In his British television interview Dr Jaffar commented, “the facilities of the programme were damaged during the (first Gulf) war. Iraq did not have ... would not have had the resources under sanctions to continue with the programme ...” “Saddam took a decision in July 1991 to abandon the programme and destroy what remained of its equipment.” “We had orders to hand over the equipment to the Republican Guards, to the Special Republican Guards, and they had orders to destroy the equipment that we handed over to them."

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanh...ug132004/f1.asp

In short, what Sava wrote.

	26-10-2004 01:45									#75
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quote: Who says? Our own weapons inspectors after a year of investigation.

Apparently Iraqis say differently

	26-10-2004 01:47									#76
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If you take their statements out of context, I guess so.

	26-10-2004 01:48									#77
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What Iraqis? The actual weapons scientists responsible for the programs, being the one interviewed for the final inspector report?

Just saying "Iraqis" means nothing: after all, most insurgents are Iraqis also. Saddam is an Iraqi, and he always said he had no WMD's anymore.

Sorry man, but that is a sad excuse- again, what credible, substantial evidence can you point to that contradicst the findings of this very administrations one year investigation of the facts?

	26-10-2004 01:48									#78
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quote: and for every rumor, there's a gullible dope willing to believe it

This dope could make a nuclear weapon out of all the materials that have reportedly been stolen.

	26-10-2004 01:51									#79
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1. That would be the amdinistrations fault, given all said materials were under lock and key or supervision by the IAEA before the US invaded

2. Actually, no, since creating radioactive materials than can be used in a nuke, U235 or Plutonium are both extremely hard to do. Turning uranium into enriched uranium is a gigantic step.

	26-10-2004 01:51									#80
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I guess, as long as you can pull the yellow cake out of your ass.

	26-10-2004 01:55									#81
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quote: what credible, substantial evidence can you point to that contradicst the findings of this very administrations one year investigation of the facts?

I guess I have no "credible evidence" since everything I show you just throw sheit at saying "they ain't credible " ... like that's an argument or a rebuttal. Those links reporting that Saddam had yellow cake are from the beginning of THIS month, and were talking about before this war not the one in 1991. Rebutt the claims without trashing the reporter.

You all stubbornly choose not believe. You choose to ignore the facts that I have shown here by trashing the "rags" they are printed in. You are as ignorant and as stubborn in your disbelief as I am in my belief. Now I know how Ben feels.

	26-10-2004 01:58									#82
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I guess I'm on Japher's ignore list.

	26-10-2004 02:04									#83
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Actually, Ramo

quote: After he was captured by U.S. forces in Baghdad last year, Dr. Mahdi Obeidi, who ran Saddam's nuclear centrifuge program until 1997, had some disturbing news for coalition debriefers. He kept blueprints for a nuclear centrifuge, along with some actual centrifuge components, stored at his home - buried in the front yard - awaiting orders from Baghdad to proceed. "I had to maintain the program to the bitter end," Obeidi said recently. His only other choice was death. In his new book, "The Bomb in My Garden," the Iraqi physicist explains that his nuclear stash was the key that could have unlocked and restarted Saddam's bombmaking program. "The centrifuge is the single most dangerous piece of nuclear technology," he writes. "With advances in centrifuge technology, it is now possible to conceal a uranium enrichment program inside a single warehouse." Last week Dr. Obeidi warned in a New York Times op-ed piece that Saddam could have restarted his nuclear program "with a snap of his fingers." Perhaps the 500-ton stockpile of nuclear fuel that Saddam kept at al Tuwaitha wasn't quite as benign as our media like to pretend.

1997 to the beginning of this month. I know that a 1 looks like a 7, but come on!

Most of that last post was aimed at you Ramo, for just denouncing the report based on the source... It ain't like they're the Onion, and what of the other source that says the same thing?

I'm not saying he had weapons, I am saying he had the ability to make weapons, and from the looks of it was doing so and had the means. You have shown nothing that says contrary to that theory. All you say is, NOPE, NO WAY... I know how much you want Bush to be wrong on this one, but maybe the US intelligence didn't Fvck up as much as you had hope.

	26-10-2004 02:14									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I guess I have no "credible evidence" since everything I show you just throw sheit at saying "they ain't credible " ... like that's an argument or a rebuttal. Those links reporting that Saddam had yellow cake are from the beginning of THIS month, and were talking about before this war not the one in 1991. Rebutt the claims without trashing the reporter.

Why the hell would I chose to believe one reporter with limited access to information looking at one single piece than a year long investigation with comparibly unlimited resources and access doing a report on the totality of events????!!!

quote: You all stubbornly choose not believe. You choose to ignore the facts that I have shown here by trashing the "rags" they are printed in. You are as ignorant and as stubborn in your disbelief as I am in my belief. Now I know how Ben feels.

If a twelve year old comes to me with a factbook on science claiming things are one way, and the PhD who did the very research comes to me with his 300 page scientific study on the issue, the fact the twelve year old mighyt have a few interesting tid-bits does not in any way make him a more credible source than the PhD, and in the end of the day it is honestly absurd to claim one reporter from any rag is somehow more in the know that hundreds of weapons experts who spent a year interviewing, goinbg through documents and so forth.

	26-10-2004 02:17									#85
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That's a bad analogy Gepap, and those are poor excuses.

You are now so willingly believing the same people who lied to you before because they are telling you what you want to hear. That is just as stupid as me not believing them now, but believing them then.

	26-10-2004 02:18									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I'm not saying he had weapons, I am saying he had the ability to make weapons, and from the looks of it was doing so and had the means. You have shown nothing that says contrary to that theory. All you say is, NOPE, NO WAY... I know how much you want Bush to be wrong on this one, but maybe the US intelligence didn't Fvck up as much as you had hope.

ARRGHH!!!

No one ever questioned that he had the ability to make weapons simply given the residue of knowledge in Iraq- that was the point of MONITORING by the UN.

The point, which you seem to ignore with a passion, is that Ability does not equal having an active program, having the capability to restart an active program within a reasonable timeframe, or in fact anything else for that matter.

Heck, Bolivia has the "ability" for a WND program, just based on basic knowledge and stuff lying around. And lets not even speak about Japan or Germany. Do you think Germany and Japan have cladestine nuclear programs?

	26-10-2004 02:20									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That's a bad analogy Gepap, and those are poor excuses.

Actually, its a great annalogy.

quote: You are now so willingly believing the same people who lied to you before because they are telling you what you want to hear. That is just as stupid as me not believing them now, but believing them then.

Actually, the people who lied to me before was the administration. The finding of this new group was in line with the findings of the UN prior to invasion-they also never lied to me. Its sad that in the end Saddam was more truthful about his programs than Bush was.

	26-10-2004 02:22									#88
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quote: Do you think Germany and Japan have cladestine nuclear programs?

What sort of proof would you need in order to be convinced that Saddam had an ACTIVE program for the manufacturing of nuclear weapons or WoMD in general?

	26-10-2004 02:26									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Japher What sort of proof would you need in order to be convinced that Saddam had an ACTIVE program for the manufacturing of nuclear weapons or WoMD in general?

OK:

1. Actual working sites were these things were being researched and put in(which there were none off)
2. Scientists actually working on WMD research and creation (which there were none off)
3. testing facilities (which there were none off).

You are claiming the same as saying cause Saddam had a building, and trained auto engineers, and aluminum, and tires, he must have been making cars, even if the plants lie abandonned, the engineers were home, and the tires and aluminium sat in storage in a warehouse.

I mean, IS THAT SO HARD TO GRASP!!!!

	26-10-2004 02:29									#90
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Did you actually bother to read my post, Japher? I refuted your Newsmax link based on its contents as well as laughing at the fact that you linked to Newsmax. It was political hackery of the highest order. To repeat, Newsmax took Jaffer's statements totally out of context, he was saying that there was a nuclear program before the Gulf War, and he specifically stated that it was destroyed afterwards.

As for Obeidi, WaPo reported:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...anguage=printer

quote: Obeidi confirmed the account laid out in Volume 7 of Iraq's December nuclear disclosure, which said there had been "no nuclear activity since 1991" at seven of the program's previous sites and only "medical, agricultural and industrial" activities at the others. The centrifuge program died in 1991, Obeidi said, and never resumed.

As for 1997, WaPo reports 1991:

quote: Mahdi Obeidi, chief of the pre-1991 centrifuge program to enrich uranium, sat anxiously at home awaiting U.S. investigators.