27-10-2004 20:34									#31
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Only 5 percent of the EU budget goes to the bureaucracy.

Anyway, I think it is possible to have corruption without a state bureaucracy. The correlation that more bureaucracy should equal more corruption is therefore not a proven fact.

There are other factors at work when you speak of corruption.
For instance the ties between politicians and corporations. This is not the fault of the bureaucracy.

	27-10-2004 20:36									#32
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Yeah and you BELIEVE in that logic? I can't believe you can be that .. I mean come on. That's so wrong in so many levels. I thought you were smarter than that. Well I guess according to your SUPER logics, Berlin should have the same amount of power and seats than our country. YEP sounds about right!

PS. Learn how to count.

this is what I'm talking about TRUE EUROS. They are so blind to their won EU hegemony, which is only another, the new and improved passive aggressive imperialism. I find it funny most TRUE EUROS also are against US imperialism and aggression in all cases, but accept EU imperialism even in its own ranks. Only shows you TRUE EUros don't give a **** about the rest of us EUropeans, but are only for power grabbing. Stop whining, you ARE the establishment. The sound of the poor and oppressed is us.

	27-10-2004 20:38									#33
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Im a TRUE ASS blah blah blah SUPER blah blah TRUE blah blahblah
Your not TRUE SUPER blah blah only SUPER blah blah

	27-10-2004 20:39									#34
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Well, Spiff you know Barroso gets his cards from the Prime Ministers of the Union. So he kinda had to play to the very end because the PMs in this case berlusconi didnt give him an alternative to play with.

Sure. But he figured he could take the Parliament by force, and he believed they'd cower again in fear of breaking the Great Compromise (well, I expected it too).

Now, he has understood that he is the one who will make-do with the rotten staff. He must either:
1. Reshuffle the Commissioner's jobs so that Buttiglione's bigotry, and the corporate whores' bias appear acceptable.
2. Convince the individual gvernments to send somebody worthy at the Commission. This will be especially important with hungary, considering Hungary's candidate is deemed as utterly incompetent.

	27-10-2004 20:42									#35
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laurentius

	27-10-2004 20:43									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It shows there's a need for a boss (the Parliament) and a servant (the Commission). I still wonder why Barroso felt he was in any position to decide. He is merely in the position to execute the orders of other institutions.

The EU parliament is elected, but the vote rarely if ever goes above 50 percent in the elctions.

The commisoners are appointed from a base chosen by each individual government, then (maybe not in all cases) approved by the parliament in each nation-state, where the voter participation is significantly higher.

So you either have a more direct trans-european democracy with a questionable mandate, or you have a more indirect nation-based democracy where the commisioners have a secure mandate.

	27-10-2004 20:43									#37
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quote: This will be especially important with hungary, considering Hungary's candidate is deemed as utterly incompetent.

Wasn't there some commotion 'bout the Dutch one too? IIRC she was involved in several fraude cases too.
Oh, and the English one as well, being a close friend to little dear leader.

	27-10-2004 20:44									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yeah and you BELIEVE in that logic? I can't believe you can be that .. I mean come on. That's so wrong in so many levels. I thought you were smarter than that. Well I guess according to your SUPER logics, Berlin should have the same amount of power and seats than our country. YEP sounds about right!

Was that a reply to me?

I was merely pointing out that my district elects precisely as many MEPs as Finland, despite my district being twice as populated as Finland.

And despite Finland being 100% overrepresented over me, I still support that institution where I'm underrepresented

I don't understand why you are so agressive about it. if anything, I am supporting a system that empowers small countries over big ones.

	27-10-2004 20:48									#39
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Spiffor, hey, if you truly believe in that logic, then this debate can't go on because you simply deny logical facts.

You really believe in that? You believe all you just said in your post? omg..



EU inside imperialism

	27-10-2004 20:48									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Sure. But he figured he could take the Parliament by force, and he believed they'd cower again in fear of breaking the Great Compromise (well, I expected it too). Now, he has understood that he is the one who will make-do with the rotten staff. He must either: 1. Reshuffle the Commissioner's jobs so that Buttiglione's bigotry, and the corporate whores' bias appear acceptable. 2. Convince the individual gvernments to send somebody worthy at the Commission. This will be especially important with hungary, considering Hungary's candidate is deemed as utterly incompetent.

Yeah and if Barroso does those two things, theres the possibility that the Conservatives break a fight by saying the proposed comission is too leftist.

Either way the whole process of getting a new Comission appears too bureucratic in the sence that it can be bring to a halt by PMs, MEPs etc. on so many different levels that it already threatens to make it a real farce and a political chaos..

What I think we should do is. Let the Parliament have their own candidates and let the internal balance of the parliament decide who is elected to what position. This would not only make the process more democratic but it would really give people a reason to vote in the parliamentary elections...

	27-10-2004 20:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc So you either have a more direct trans-european democracy with a questionable mandate, or you have a more indirect nation-based democracy where the commisioners have a secure mandate.

The relationship between EU-commissioners and voters in their country is very tenuous. At best, the Commissioners are people who successfully lobbied in their own party, which happens to be the party in power during the nomination. These people are completely disconnected from the voters.

For example, nobody in France ever supported (or cared) for the position of Michel Barnier and Pascal Lamy in the Prodi commission. And Pascal Lamy, officially a Socialist, was a champion of free-trade, so extremely it goes opposite to the beliefs of most French people, not mentioning the Socialists.

	27-10-2004 20:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Besides, I find it funny that Pekka rants about more power to France when the Europarli does something, considering that Pekka has exactly TWICE more say than me in the Parliament. That's right: one Pekka = two Spiffors.

If there was a "Union" between France and India, and every Frenchman got five votes and every Indian got one, don't you think it would still be more power to India?

	27-10-2004 20:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Spiffor, hey, if you truly believe in that logic, then this debate can't go on because you simply deny logical facts.

I don't remember having denied anything in this thread. Please enlighten me of what I'm denying.

quote: You really believe in that? You believe all you just said in your post? omg..

What? That Finland and its 5 Million inhabitants have 12 MEPs, while the Paris Metropolitan Area and its 10 Million inhab. have 12 MEPs as well?
Meaning that one Finnish voter has twice as much say in the European Parliament as a Parisian one?
Yes.

	27-10-2004 20:52									#44
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius What I think we should do is. Let the Parliament have their own candidates and let the internal balance of the parliament decide who is elected to what position. This would not only make the process more democratic but it would really give people a reason to vote in the parliamentary elections...

That is a good idea.
However, then you might as well just dismantle the national parliaments.

	27-10-2004 20:56									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker If there was a "Union" between France and India, and every Frenchman got five votes and every Indian got one, don't you think it would still be more power to India?

It would definitely be less power to the Indian voter. In the case of a Supranational institution like the European Parliament, nationality means little. Ideologies mean the most. If Pekka votes for a conservative MEP, the guy will seat with conservative MEPs from France, Italy, Slowakia etc. The guy won't sit with only other Finns, and there won't be a "Finnish bloc" at the Parliament. Just like there is no "French bloc" or "Italian bloc".

	27-10-2004 20:58									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc That is a good idea. However, then you might as well just dismantle the national parliaments.

What kind of conclusion is that? The EU doesnt make all the decisions in its member states now, nor it would decide anymore in my proposal. The real point is this. My proposal would remove one needless layer of bureucracy(bad word, prolly wrong one too, best Ive got though).

Look it like this:

NOW

People elect national parliaments, a government is formed, that then decides a national candidate for EU Comission, EU parliament rejects or approves the proposed comission

AFTER (my proposal)

People elect EU parliament, parliament elects EU Comission.

Less bureucracy, more democracy

	27-10-2004 20:59									#47
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This is really what it breaks down to:

By what right does a Frenchman get to tell a Finn what to do?

Then, of course, by what right does a Finn in Helsinki get to tell a Finn in some other city what to do?

Etc., etc. This essentially leads to the conclusion that we must live in an anarchy in which nonetheless individual liberties are not violated, which is a contradiction.

However, simply permitting the opposite - that the Frenchmen get to tell the Finns what to do by virtue of there being more Frenchmen - leads to the unacceptable conclusion of us be required to submit ourselves immediately to world opinion.

The middle ground is a limited democratic state over people who have decided that ultimately they have the same interests, that protects individual liberties. Once two or more groups of people have decided that they do ultimately have the same interests, and that they trust the other groups not to exploit them, a union between the groups can form simply a larger democracy.

This was relatively easy in the American colonies, and even there is was very difficult to create a real national government. Europe may not be ready for it.

	27-10-2004 20:59									#48
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KUci, well, according to his logics, New York should have more say than us if we were in Union with the US. They should have the power TWICE over our whole country. Of courtse, Spiffor fails to recognize nationalities and borders, and treats euros as one, and that we would love to agree with all of France's political goals and methods, therefor it wouldn't matter we had borders and naitonalities.

The open disrespect towards our soverignity is appaling. I find it not only racist but extremely disrespectful to the point where it is almost hurtful. I'm not sure if I've ever heard greater disrespect against my fair country and my countrymen on this board. The failure to see our position is disgusting and extremely poor at best. We switch places and he would have a different sound on his bell, so saying these things with straight face is not only foolish, it is also very stupid. It shows just how much you respect our country. This is like minimum wage, if I could pay you less, I would but it's illegal. If I could take your vote away, I would but I can't. But I still keep on bullying.

And these people don't even see it, they think they're being reasonable and only fair. Yeah sure. They have no concept of Union. We're not unified as long as this arrogance and ignorance goes on, and to my guess that would be forever or as long as central europe holds the power.

"What? That Finland and its 5 Million inhabitants have 12 MEPs, while the Paris Metropolitan Area and its 10 Million inhab. have 12 MEPs as well?"

You make this sentence, and you don't realize how ****ed up it is? SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT.. according to your logic, Paris should have 24 meps and we should have 12? wtf?

And when you say, nah, of course I see that they should have the same amount, you wrap case and say 'we are not bullying around, shut up, I'm underrepresened'... Yeah right. And you still think this is not arrogant, or extremely disrespectful?

	27-10-2004 21:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It would definitely be less power to the Indian voter. In the case of a Supranational institution like the European Parliament, nationality means little. Ideologies mean the most. If Pekka votes for a conservative MEP, the guy will seat with conservative MEPs from France, Italy, Slowakia etc. The guy won't sit with only other Finns, and there won't be a "Finnish bloc" at the Parliament. Just like there is no "French bloc" or "Italian bloc".

Ah, but that's the thing: India and France do have different interests specific to Indians and to French.

	27-10-2004 21:02									#50
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National Soveigrenity = Useless bullshit

	27-10-2004 21:02									#51
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" Just like there is no "French bloc" "

Yes there will be. Don't be so freaking naive.

"In the case of a Supranational institution like the European Parliament, nationality means little. Ideologies mean the most."

Yes, ideology dictated by the most powerful ones.

Keep on denying reality. You're just agreeing with the power grab. What about EU lead by the Finns, our ideology, and we'd be the strongest influence? OH DOESN'T SOUND SO GOOD ANYMORE? Too freaking bad. that's what it is for many of us. So the least you can do is stop being so disrespectful and disgusting.

	27-10-2004 21:03									#52
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius National Soveigrenity = Useless bullshit

OK.

Submit yourself to the dictates of world opinion - of EVERYONE in the world. Now.

Otherwise, shut up.

	27-10-2004 21:05									#53
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quote: By what right does a Frenchman get to tell a Finn what to do? Then, of course, by what right does a Finn in Helsinki get to tell a Finn in some other city what to do?

How is this different from, say, Cafifornia vs Idaho?

	27-10-2004 21:07									#54
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quote: " Just like there is no "French bloc" " Yes there will be. Don't be so freaking naive.

Hmm, you'll find a liberal bloc, a socialist bloc etc.. Not a national bloc.

These guys have to take in account local ( national ) politics too, you know.

	27-10-2004 21:09									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker If there was a "Union" between France and India, and every Frenchman got five votes and every Indian got one, don't you think it would still be more power to India?

You are right; I think that the real question is : does the power of each side varied after entering the union, and because of entering the union?

	27-10-2004 21:10									#56
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Kuci, no it's only alright if the central europe leads it. If US leads, it's not BS anymore.

"How is this different from, say, Cafifornia vs Idaho?"

Do you really need to even ask?

	27-10-2004 21:11									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker OK. Submit yourself to the dictates of world opinion - of EVERYONE in the world. Now. Otherwise, shut up.

Hey, why dont you shut up.

I believe that everyone in the world are responsible to others. This means that we are the ones who dictate the world opinion. Whats the use for National Soveigrenity in this world? Who uses it? Let me tell you who does. Countries like China over Tibet, Russia over Chechenya, Sudan over Darfour, Belorussia and dozen other ex-soviet states to justify their fascist regimes, North Korea etc. the list goes on and on. Besides look at the corporate world, what does it care about national soveigrenity. Not a damn!

EDIT: Took out the unecessary flame

	27-10-2004 21:11									#58
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quote: Completely agreed. It shows there's a need for a boss (the Parliament) and a servant (the Commission). I still wonder why Barroso felt he was in any position to decide. He is merely in the position to execute the orders of other institutions.

While it might show the need for a boss (i.e., the process is broken), it doesn't demonstrate that there is a boss in the parliament.

	27-10-2004 21:15									#59
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"I believe that everyone in the world are responsible to others. This means that we are the ones who dictate the world opinion. Whats the use for National Soveigrenity in this world?"

national sov is something that is REAL and CONCRETE compared to the 'hands across the world'. It's sad, but that's the way it is.

But sure we can build a better world. More peaceful, prosperous and friendly. But let's just be realistic about it and not pop the champagne and release the balloons with 'why don't we just get along' .. 'no wait! we can! Yay!' because it doesn't mean ****. I already know how this will be countered, and yeah there are so much people like me, that it's the concrete proof it won't work

	27-10-2004 21:15									#60
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Pekka.
Finland can join with other nations in countering your fears of a hostile Franch takeover, any time. But maybe you should lessen your nationalistic rhetoric, or you might be considered a rogue state.