27-10-2004 15:41									#1
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From the BBC:

quote: Barroso backs down over EU vote A vote to approve the new European Commission has been delayed after the incoming president withdrew his proposed line-up of commissioners. Jose Manuel Barroso said more time was needed to choose a commission that the European Parliament would approve. MEPs had threatened to veto the new commission over the inclusion of Rocco Buttiglione, who has expressed controversial views on gays and women. Mr Buttiglione had been chosen as justice and home affairs commissioner. The new commission had been due to start work on 1 November. Incumbent commission leader Romano Prodi and his commission will now remain in office until a new team is approved, but there is no clear protocol on how to proceed. I have come to the conclusion that if a vote is taken today, the outcome will not be positive for European institutions or for the European project Jose Manuel Barroso To applause from MEPs, Mr Barroso told parliament he believed the outcome of Wednesday's vote would not have been "positive for the European institutions or the European project". "In these circumstances, I have decided not to submit a new commission for approval today." He added: "I need more time to look at this issue and to consult with the council... so that we can have strong support for the new commission." Mr Barroso said he would consult EU leaders and parliament before putting forward new proposals "in the next few weeks". Victory The BBC's Tim Franks says MEPs who had planned to vote against the commission believe Mr Barroso's move marks a decisive shift in who wields what power inside the European Union. He says Mr Barroso has two choices: to reshuffle his commission line-up and put Mr Buttiglione in a less contentious portfolio or ask Italy to propose another candidate. Parliament President Josep Borrell said the EU was now entering "virgin political territory". Socialist floor leader Martin Schulz said the outcome was "a victory for the European Parliament, especially for my group". On Tuesday, Mr Barroso had made last-ditch pleas to deputies to back his team, but refused to seek a replacement for Mr Buttiglione. Mr Buttiglione, an Italian, recently said he regarded homosexuality as a sin and he suggested unmarried women made bad mothers. The Italian press reported on Wednesday that Mr Buttiglione had refused a request from Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to withdraw his candidacy. Solution Ulster Unionist MEP Jim Nicholson was among those who welcomed the decision to postpone the vote, but said the setback has not been helped by Mr Barroso's "inaction". "This is a setback but it is not the end of the world, by any means," he said. "However, I would have to add that MEPs will be looking at three or four other commissioners who do not appear to be up for the job." Hans-Gert Poettering, head of the conservative European People's Party, which had been expected to support Mr Barroso's new team, said: "We are all confident to find a solution." The 732-member parliament cannot choose to reject Mr Buttiglione alone - deputies must accept or reject the new commission as a whole. The 24 new commissioners were initially put forward by the governments of individual member states.

At last!

The Parliament has finally shown Barroso who's the boss, by pressuring him into removing an unacceptable commissioner.

This is excellent news for the European democracy, as the Parliament now dares to wield its power. This sure makes a difference with the past (including the very recent past), where the EU-Parli was full of "yes-men", who feared to threaten the Holy Consensus if they stood for their beliefs.

This is good news for the European democracy in two aspects:
- It shifts power from the individual governments toward the Parliament. Some years before, Italy would have never thought its candidate could possibly be worried by what was an unimportant institution.
- It is the first time I'm aware of, that the European Parliament is successful at pushing a decision based on ideology. Should the trend continue, the EU will be closer to the voter at last, because a vote is mostly determined by one's worldview (meaning that the worldview of the Europeans will finally be taken into account)

Here's hoping the European Socialists will now continue having guts, and will now use their newly found power to do something about the terrible state of our economic policies.

	27-10-2004 15:42									#2
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BTW mods, please do not close this thread because of that one

The purpose of this here thread is not to talk about Christianty and the EU's "persecution" of it. It is about the shift in power within EU institurions.

	27-10-2004 15:45									#3
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I love the irony: the leader of the anti-Buttiglione coalition was Martin Schulz. You know... The "Kapo" by Berlusconi's words

	27-10-2004 15:49									#4
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The European Parlaiment actually did something
OMG!

	27-10-2004 15:50									#5
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But was there really a majority against the new commission?

	27-10-2004 15:54									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf But was there really a majority against the new commission?

It's unknown. The Socialists, Greens and Communists would have voted against it. But I don't know what the Anti-Europeans and the Liberals would have done. Buttiglione's comments were a slap in the face of what the liberals stand for, but they're also the most fanatical guardians of the Consensus.

I suppose Barroso didn't know either if his Commission would be shot down or not. And that's why he chose to back down, rather than risk creating a political crisis, with the EU voting against his Commission.

	27-10-2004 15:54									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko The European Parlaiment actually did something OMG!

Crazy, innit?

I would have never believed it myself

	27-10-2004 15:59									#8
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It seems like the responsibility (in lack of a better word) to get teh Consensus has shifted from the Parliament to the Commission:

quote: He added: "I need more time to look at this issue and to consult with the council... so that we can have strong support for the new commission." Mr Barroso said he would consult EU leaders and parliament before putting forward new proposals "in the next few weeks".

Which of course is good because the Parliament is actually elected by the people as opposed to the Commission which isn't.

	27-10-2004 16:26									#9
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Precisely.

Until now, the Commission took its role of arbitrator dearly... That is, arbitrator between national interests. The Parliament was rarely the target of the Commission's mission of Consensus, only when it was in complete disagreement with the Council.

Now, the Parliament is openly hostile with the choice of the Member-States (of one Member-State, to be accurate), and Barroso has understood it's his job, not the Parliament's, to find a compromise.

It's a good omen for Barroso's rule, as he now knows he's not the boss

	27-10-2004 17:09									#10
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Balls

	27-10-2004 17:36									#11
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Cojones

	27-10-2004 18:49									#12
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BTW, I learned that no less than 6 would-be Commissioners were harshly criticized:

- Buttiglione, as we all know.
- The would-be Commissioner to competition, who was on the Boards Of Directors of 13 companies...
- The Danish candidate, who was also considered biased for some economic interests
- The Hungarian candidate, who was deemed "incompetent" by the normally polite EP.
- One candidate was anti-European.
Can't remember about the last one.

To think that this atrocious Commission would have probably passed, if it was not for Buttiglione's bigoted comments. Thank you bigotry! You saved our day

(BTW, Martin Schulz, leader of the anti-Commission coalition warned Barroso not to come back with the same candidates. He seems keen on proving he has balls several times Really, the times are changing )

	27-10-2004 19:05									#13
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Ok playing the devils advocate.

Maybe you got democracy, but it has just been used to curb political freedom.

That is politicians do not enjoy freedom of speech, nor the right to freely associate (with corporations).

	27-10-2004 19:14									#14
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power away from local governments -> more power grabbing for france and germany. Don't believe so? Yeah, at the end the cycle goes there. Nay sayers of course will deny this, but then again, they are always french, or germans, or TRUE EUROS.

Not necessarily saying this action was bad itself. Euros love bureocracy. I don't.

	27-10-2004 19:30									#15
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What will happen the commision propose another candidate who is more in line with the socialist faction.

Will this new candidate then not be attacked by the conservative faction?

	27-10-2004 19:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka power away from local governments -> more power grabbing for france and germany. Don't believe so? Yeah, at the end the cycle goes there. Nay sayers of course will deny this, but then again, they are always french, or germans, or TRUE EUROS. Not necessarily saying this action was bad itself. Euros love bureocracy. I don't.

I believe I am the "nay sayer" here. And yes, I happen to be French. However, my love for supranational institutions such as the European parliament is not overwhelmingly shared here. If anything, my opinions would be more commonplace in Belgium, which is the one TRUE EURO country

And don't forget: France and Germany = individual countries. There's a reason why Chirac and Schröder disliked so much the idea of sending only one Commissioner (instead of two), and why Chirac wanted so strongly a Frenchman at the ECB.

	27-10-2004 20:06									#17
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Yes, Belgium is a TRUE EURO country if I need to stereotype.

"There's a reason why Chirac and Schröder disliked so much the idea of sending only one Commissioner (instead of two), and why Chirac wanted so strongly a Frenchman at the ECB."

Exacto. And who do you think will lobby through these? It's like two conmen working together, whiel they might not be the best friends and agree all the time, they are criminals and so they join forces to kill other people so they can continue their individual crime sprees without being caught and sentenced. Of course, France and Germany are not conmen or criminals . Their governments though are.. .... they're evil. And their agendas now can have more ground than before. Why would I love this, if this is agasint our national interests? For Europa? Even if it's against national interests? Ich don't think so .

	27-10-2004 20:17									#18
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I don't know as this is good news.

One possibility is that he believed that he could get his current slate approved, but that it wouldn't have the "concensus" that he thinks is required to do business in the EU. If this is the case, then this only demonstrates the limits of the necessity of concensus (which I think is a BS way to run government institutions in any event).

	27-10-2004 20:22									#19
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quote: and the Liberals would have done

They were going to vote 'NO' but not by a very large margin
50 No
37? Yes
? undecided

Can't recall the exact numbers nut it was on the news yesterday evening.
--

quote: Belgium, which is the one TRUE EURO country

Ahhhh that's because it's not a real country.
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Great thread title btw

	27-10-2004 20:23									#20
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It may be right that consensus is not neccesary in a single governmnet to run it effectively. But with Europe you have 20 governments who have agreed to deposit soveriegnty in the Union. Therefore consensus is politicially important, to prevent secessionist movements from gaining power. Especially because the EU lacks the force to implement non-consensus policies.

	27-10-2004 20:23									#21
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Red rubber bouncy balls?

	27-10-2004 20:26									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc What will happen the commision propose another candidate who is more in line with the socialist faction. Will this new candidate then not be attacked by the conservative faction?

They won't propose somebody who is too much in line with the Socialists. The new guy(s?) will be bland, in order not to piss the MEPs enough that they vote against the Commission.

	27-10-2004 20:26									#23
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Consesus Schmonsesus, EU is corrupt, there's just no way around it. So there's corruption everywhere, but then you add the SUPERbureocracy and the SUPERlovers, TRUE EUROS and few big countries that have agendas and you get what? That's right you think you got mousse but it was diarrhea and you took a bite of it.

	27-10-2004 20:29									#24
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Pekka, I don't see how more power to the European parliament would imply more power to Germany+France.
They have only 99+77 seats out of 731 = 24%.

	27-10-2004 20:29									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DanS One possibility is that he believed that he could get his current slate approved, but that it wouldn't have the "concensus" that he thinks is required to do business in the EU. If this is the case, then this only demonstrates the limits of the necessity of concensus (which I think is a BS way to run government institutions in any event).

Completely agreed. It shows there's a need for a boss (the Parliament) and a servant (the Commission). I still wonder why Barroso felt he was in any position to decide. He is merely in the position to execute the orders of other institutions.

	27-10-2004 20:31									#26
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Combat Ingrid, be careful, you are defending the Great Satan!

	27-10-2004 20:31									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Pekka, I don't see how more power to the European parliament would imply more power to Germany+France. They have only 99+77 seats out of 731 = 24%.

Besides, I find it funny that Pekka rants about more power to France when the Europarli does something, considering that Pekka has exactly TWICE more say than me in the Parliament. That's right: one Pekka = two Spiffors.

	27-10-2004 20:33									#28
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quote: Mr Barroso

Thank the English for appointing him, our guy wasn't good enough for them.

Though he said recently he would have kicked his sorrow butt back to italy.

	27-10-2004 20:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Combat Ingrid, be careful, you are defending the Great Satan!

	27-10-2004 20:34									#30
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Well, Spiff you know Barroso gets his cards from the Prime Ministers of the Union. So he kinda had to play to the very end because the PMs in this case berlusconi didnt give him an alternative to play with. So he had to appear strong and pray for the best.


oftopic:
Im getting tired of all the Super-this Super-that bs.