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Stefu is offline Stefu
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 22:16 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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100,000 excess deaths reported in Iraq since the war started Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../iraq_deaths_dc



Clearly Iraqis are better off now than under Saddam, aren't they?

BeBro is offline BeBro
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 22:18 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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But that's freedom! They can now blow themselves up!

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
time: 23:20
  Old Post 28-10-2004 22:19
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quote:
air strikes from (U.S.-led) coalition forces accounted for the most violent deaths," the report added.


a great way to spread democracy!




the blood is on your hands, neo-conservatives... shame on all of you. May there be a God willing to forgive you for this insanity.

alva is offline alva
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 22:20
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Pffff, it was god who ordered them in the first place, according to his spokesperson.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 22:22
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Don't you understand that these dead Iraqis are now really free? They will never fear their brutal dictator for the rest of eternity!

GePap is offline GePap
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 22:53
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I wonder what methodology they used that gave them a number so much higher than the generally accounted for number?

Evil Knevil is offline Evil Knevil
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:33 Visit Evil Knevil's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Don't you understand that these dead Iraqis are now really free? They will never fear their brutal dictator for the rest of eternity!


God? He's the most brutal dictator, surely?

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I wonder what methodology they used that gave them a number so much higher than the generally accounted for number?



http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...world-headlines

quote:

To conduct the survey, investigators visited 33 neighborhoods spread evenly across the country in September, randomly selecting clusters of 30 households to sample. Of the 988 households visited, 808, consisting of 7,868 people, agreed to participate in the survey. At each one they asked how many people lived in the home and how many births and deaths there had been since January 2002.

The scientists then compared death rates in the 15 months before the invasion with those that occurred during the 18 months after the attack and adjusted those numbers to account for the different time periods.

Even though the sample size appears small, this type of survey is considered accurate and acceptable by scientists and was used to calculate war deaths in Kosovo in the late 1990s.

The investigators worked in teams of three. Five of the six Iraqi interviewers were doctors and all six were fluent in English and Arabic.

In the households reporting deaths, the person who died had to be living there at the time of the death and for more than two months before to be counted. In an attempt at firmer confirmation, the interviewers asked for death certificates in 78 households and were provided them 63 times.

There were 46 deaths in the surveyed households before the war. After the invasion, there were 142 deaths. That is an increase from 5 deaths per 1,000 people per year to 12.3 per 1,000 people per year -- more than double.

However, more than a third of the post-invasion deaths were reported in one cluster of households in the city Falluja, where fighting has been most intense recently. Because the fighting was so severe there, the numbers from that location may have exaggerated the overall picture.

When the researchers recalculated the effect of the war without the statistics from Falluja, the deaths end up at 7.9 per 1,000 people per year -- still 1.5 times higher than before the war.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I wonder what methodology they used that gave them a number so much higher than the generally accounted for number?


they surveyed people and asked about deaths in the family for the 15 months prior to the invasion, and the months subsequent.

Whats VERY odd is that the alleged increase in death is entirely attributed to violence, and almost entirely to US bombardment. I would have expected increases in deaths due to disease (given widely publicized problems with hospitals and water right after the war) and in non-political crime (given the widely publicized increase in the murder rate in Baghdad after the war) , not to mention deaths at the hand of the insurgents.
Something is VERY fishy in these numbers.

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
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Dec 2001
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Something is VERY fishy in these numbers.


What is the official US version of the numbers of Iraqi victims?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:50
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LOTM: are you sure that by "most violent deaths", they meant "most numerous deaths"?

I wouldn't be surprised if the families were more horrified by a death from bombing than by a death from disease / murder. And I wouldn't be surprised if the paper used a double-edged word in order to make the reader believe that most deaths come from American bombs. But I wonder if the actual results of the study are that the death toll essentially comes from aerial bombardment.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph


What is the official US version of the numbers of Iraqi victims?


I have no idea, but the antiwar Iraq Body County has much lower numbers IIRC, and their numbers have been critiqued as way too high by analysts such as Dave Adesnik at Oxblog.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
What is the official US version of the numbers of Iraqi victims?

"We don't do body counts"

Independent sources like http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ estimate it between 14,000 and 16,000

DanS is offline DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:54 Visit DanS's homepage!
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These numbers seem really fishy.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
LOTM: are you sure that by "most violent deaths", they meant "most numerous deaths"?

I wouldn't be surprised if the families were more horrified by a death from bombing than by a death from disease / murder. And I wouldn't be surprised if the paper used a double-edged word in order to make the reader believe that most deaths come from American bombs. But I wonder if the actual results of the study are that the death toll essentially comes from aerial bombardment.


"Violence accounted for most of the excess death and air strikes from (U.S.-led) coalition forces accounted for the most violent deaths," the report added"


Spiff, it really helps to read the linked article.

If I wuz on your said of things, id really consider waiting to use this till it had been out a couple of days.

Evil Knevil is offline Evil Knevil
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:56 Visit Evil Knevil's homepage!
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[Bernard Lewis]
Arabs are notorious exaggerators
[/Bernard Lewis]

I find it hard to believe that the occupation has killed 100,000 Iraqis... At least not just through military action.

I would say that the collapse of the water systems, electric difficulties and disasterous healthcare killed more people than the war did.
Wether one can blame the Yankees, is a bit more difficult...

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:57 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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STFU STEFU! STOP HURTING THE MORAL MORALE OF OUR TROOPER TROOPS

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
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Dec 2001
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:58
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Thanks LOTM and Spiffor, but I put the word official in my question for a reason. In my opinion, anyone who criticizes numbers given by other sources, should at least release his own version.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 28-10-2004 23:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Evil Knevil
[Bernard Lewis]
Arabs are notorious exaggerators
[/Bernard Lewis]


I dont think its a matter of culture, but of politics.

Sunni Arabs make up about 20% of the population. And probably the majority of them hate the coalition forces. If all or most of those who hate coalition forces are deliberately lying, that could easily generate highly unrealistic numbers.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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Dec 2000
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Thanks LOTM and Spiffor, but I put the word official in my question for a reason. In my opinion, anyone who criticizes numbers given by other sources, should at least release his own version.



So if dont have, say, an estimate of the number of incidents of violence commited by Pakistanis in Britain, i cant criticize PA's numbers?

Evil Knevil is offline Evil Knevil
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark


I dont think its a matter of culture, but of politics.

Sunni Arabs make up about 20% of the population. And probably the majority of them hate the coalition forces. If all or most of those who hate coalition forces are deliberately lying, that could easily generate highly unrealistic numbers.


That was the first thought that came to mind. Even so, 100,000! The mind balks.

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 00:03 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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Of course there could be problems with those numbers. But isn't it much more important that the security situation in the country is really a mess, and that there seems to be no positive change ahead anytime soon?

Gibsie is offline Gibsie
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 00:06
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[inane liberal comment about freedom]

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
Of course there could be problems with those numbers. But isn't it much more important that the security situation in the country is really a mess, and that there seems to be no positive change ahead anytime soon?



Thread : Swift Boat Veterans Reveal Kerry lies
Poster A : john Kerry is a coward who lied about his service in Viet Nam
Poster B: Thats demonstrably not the case
Poster A: well isnt it more important to discuss the weaknesses displayed in his recent foreign policy statements?

Bebro, yes the situation in the country is more important, and is best discussed in a thread not titled with an apparently untrue claim.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
The researchers blamed air strikes for many of the deaths.

"What we have evidence of is the use of air power in populated urban areas and the bad consequences of it," Roberts said.

. . .

"We were not expecting the level of deaths from violence that we found in this study. . . .

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
quote:
The researchers blamed air strikes for many of the deaths.

"What we have evidence of is the use of air power in populated urban areas and the bad consequences of it," Roberts said.

. . .

"We were not expecting the level of deaths from violence that we found in this study. . . .



"Tuesday, March 11, 2003

HEALTH AND HUMAN RIGHTS TEACH-IN: THE WAR IN IRAQ
See "More Information".
Tuesday, March 11, 2003
4:30 PM - 6:30 PM
East Baltimore
Building: 615 N. Wolfe St. - Bloomberg School of Public Health Room: East Wing Auditorium (Room W1214)
Cost: FREE
All students, faculty and staff are invited to a campus-wide teach-in regarding the potential health and human rights consequences of war in Iraq. The event will feature presentations from distinguished faculty and open discussion of issues raised. "Report from a fact-finding mission in Iraq: The vulnerability of life-saving public health and medical infrastructure" Michael VanRooyen, MD MPH: Associate Professor & Vice Chair, Department of Emergency Medicine Director, International Emergency Medicine Residency Program Co-Director, Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies (CIEDRS) "The management of complex humanitarian emergencies in the wake of armed conflict" Gilbert Burnham, MD PhD Associate Professor, Department of International Health Co-Director, Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies (CIEDRS) "Stress to environmental, water and sanitation systems during war" Les Roberts, PhD Associate Professor, Whiting School of Engineering Director of Health Policy, International Rescue Committee Robert Lawrence, MD (moderator) Edyth H. Schoenrich Professor of Preventive Medicine Associate Dean for Professional Practice and Programs The United States has spent many months planning for a concerted attack on Iraq, and in recent weeks, has revealed information about its massive military preparations. During this same period, there has been little public indication of plans and preparations to avoid civilian and "dual use" targets, minimize civilian casualties, or prepare for what may well be an enormous humanitarian crisis. Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) has concluded that preparing for such extraordinary use of military force to be deployed in a manner that will likely risk huge damage to infrastructure and civilian life, without due consideration for the consequences to the highly vulnerable population of Iraq, is intolerable. -PHR briefing paper, February 2003 "


Google is your friend.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 00:48 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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Re: 100,000 excess deaths reported in Iraq since the war started Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by Stefu
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../iraq_deaths_dc



Clearly Iraqis are better off now than under Saddam, aren't they?



So then, are you saying that the European casualties of World War II were not worth saving Europe from Nazi Germany?



The surviving Iraqis will be better off without Saddam's reign of terror -- once we find an effective political and military strategy to fight the current terrorism in Iraq.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

"We don't do body counts"

Independent sources like http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ estimate it between 14,000 and 16,000


It should be noted that the above figure includes Iraqi victims of the insurgents, as well.


Oxblog

"Posted 2:33 AM by David Adesnik
FLOOD THE ZONE! FLOOD THE ZONE! Each day, the Washington Post performs an admirable service by updating the number of American soldiers killed and wounded in Iraq, while also providing the names of those fallen soldiers identified by the Pentagon.

This morning, however, the Washington Post committed a grave error by including estimates of Iraqi civlian casualties provided by iraqbodycount.net (IBC for short). The Post deceptively states that the figures are provided by Reuters and IBC. Yet Reuters itself states that the figures for civilian casualties come from IBC alone.

(NB: The Post provides the IBC figures on page A18 of Saturday morning's print edition. I have not been able to locate the figures online.)

In the past, OxBlog has demonstrated conclusively that IBC relies on fraudluent data and that its flagrant dishonesty reflects its lleft-wing extremist agenda.
Principal flaws of the IBC count include:

1) Counting the victims of suicide bombings as victims of American intervention.

2) Counting victims of common crime as victims of American intervention.

3) Claiming false knowledge of the names of such victims.
As my partner Josh Chafetz documented in the Weekly Standard in April 2003, IBC's has a long history of blatant deception. As both Josh and I have shown, mainstream publications have a disturbing habit of citing IBC as a reliable source."

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 01:30
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun



So then, are you saying that the European casualties of World War II were not worth saving Europe from Nazi Germany?



The surviving Iraqis will be better off without Saddam's reign of terror -- once we find an effective political and military strategy to fight the current terrorism in Iraq.


I guess it depends. In the case of WW2, the effects of a German victory could easily have been predicted, while it seems the chaos ensuing from incompetency will cause an unpredictable number of casualties.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
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  Old Post 29-10-2004 01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
1) Counting the victims of suicide bombings as victims of American intervention.

2) Counting victims of common crime as victims of American intervention.

3) Claiming false knowledge of the names of such victims.
As my partner Josh Chafetz documented in the Weekly Standard in April 2003, IBC's has a long history of blatant deception. As both Josh and I have shown, mainstream publications have a disturbing habit of citing IBC as a reliable source."


What's wrong with 1) and 2)?

And 3) may be wrong, but it doesn't have any effect on the actual number of casualties.

 
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