29-10-2004 19:24									#31
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quote: Because he gives women the liberty to choose? If people don't consider 1st and 2nd trimester fetus' as human (which they aren't), then your argument fails.

Why is an unborn child at 25 weeks not considered a person, while an unborn child at 26 weeks should be considered one.

And even if you only consider a third trimester unborn child to be a person, then Kerry is still weak on civil liberties.

For starters, he voted against the ban on Partial birth abortions, that are performed throughout the 3rd trimester.

	29-10-2004 19:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why is an unborn child at 25 weeks not considered a person, while an unborn child at 26 weeks should be considered one. And even if you only consider a third trimester unborn child to be a person, then Kerry is still weak on civil liberties. For starters, he voted against the ban on Partial birth abortions, that are performed throughout the 3rd trimester.

They're really biting today!

As for your question: hint: brain development.

	29-10-2004 19:26									#33
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Asher:

A human fetus isnt human? Interesting.

	29-10-2004 19:27									#34
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quote: The best way to debate with people like Ben is to understand that he's been brainwashed as a child and has no hope of ever being rational or debating logically, or even making sense.

Uh, I only became a Christian in February of 2001.

So your argument is not only an ad-hominem, it is wrong.

	29-10-2004 19:29									#35
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quote: As for your question: hint: brain development.

So show me. What is so special wrt brain development that occurs in that one week?

	29-10-2004 19:29									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Uh, I only became a Christian in February of 2001. So your argument is not only an ad-hominem, it is wrong.

You were a mennonite...

quote: Asher: A human fetus isnt human? Interesting.

A fetus without a brain is not a human. Similarly, once you remove the brain of a person, they are no longer human (they have no life).

	29-10-2004 19:30									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So show me. What is so special wrt brain development that occurs in that one week?

They really are biting today!

A trimester is a week in Ben's world?

	29-10-2004 19:32									#38
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Shi, I used to have those argument in college too...


...then I took over the College Democrat office and made my pothead roommate their Chairman.

Game, set, match. Muhahahahahaha!

	29-10-2004 19:34									#39
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quote: You were a mennonite...

After I came to University. I became a Mennonite in 2001. I am still a Mennonite.

Sure, I grew up on a farm, but my folks aren't Mennonites.

quote: A fetus without a brain is not a human. Similarly, once you remove the brain of a person, they are no longer human (they have no life).

Their species remain the same. A human corpse does not change the species, even after death.

So, if the infant is human, and the parents are humans, why should the unborn child not also be considered human?

Finally, have you ever seen any information on fetal development? A 25 week old fetus has a functioning brain.

She can even survive outside the womb!

	29-10-2004 19:37									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Asher A fetus without a brain is not a human. Similarly, once you remove the brain of a person, they are no longer human (they have no life).

OK. You base humanity on brain function or is it a matter of actually possessing the organ itself?

If brain function, is there a 'passing level'?

If anatomy, then you would say that a human who is 'brain dead' but possesses a brain is still a human?

	29-10-2004 19:37									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Their species remain the same. A human corpse does not change the species, even after death. So, if the infant is human, and the parents are humans, why should the unborn child not also be considered human?

Because the unborn child is not sentient.

The very definition of human involves the term "highly-developed brain".

quote: Finally, have you ever seen any information on fetal development? A 25 week old fetus has a functioning brain.

Not to the level of consciousness and sentient life.

quote: She can even survive outside the womb!

Go encourage women to give birth at 25 weeks then. And don't hook them up to any devices that simulate the womb.

	29-10-2004 19:39									#42
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH OK. You base humanity on brain function or is it a matter of actually possessing the organ itself? If brain function, is there a 'passing level'?

Yes, third trimester.

quote: If anatomy, then you would say that a human who is 'brain dead' but possesses a brain is still a human?

If they're in a vegetative state with no hope of coming out of it, then I don't consider them to be human anymore. It's artificially surviving cadaver.

	29-10-2004 19:42									#43
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quote: The very definition of human involves the term "highly-developed brain".

Again, where do you draw the line. Are some people with higher brain function to be considered more of a person than those without?

quote: Not to the level of consciousness and sentient life.

If the child can survive outside the womb, then you are really saying that we should also be able to kill infants, because they have less brain function than adults.

quote: Go encourage women to give birth at 25 weeks then. And don't hook them up to any devices that simulate the womb.

Most women prefer to have their babies as healthy as possible.

Some actually love their children.

	29-10-2004 19:42									#44
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My bad, it's 2nd trimester where they become sentient.

I support 1st trimester abortions only, then.

	29-10-2004 19:43									#45
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quote: If they're in a vegetative state with no hope of coming out of it,

Why include this disclaimer?

	29-10-2004 19:44									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Yes, third trimester. If they're in a vegetative state with no hope of coming out of it, then I don't consider them to be human anymore. It's artificially surviving cadaver.

So where does that leave individuals with mental retardation? I guess some would be human and some not. In fact, doesnt it make sense that once you establish a level of 'brain activity' to define humanity that that level could be set anywhere? While impractical, we could define anyone with an IQ lower than 140 as subhuman.

EDIT: BK is hitting the same points so I'll leave it to him

	29-10-2004 19:44									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Again, where do you draw the line. Are some people with higher brain function to be considered more of a person than those without? If the child can survive outside the womb, then you are really saying that we should also be able to kill infants, because they have less brain function than adults.

Infants have a highly-developed brain, so no.

And it's not humanility isn't relative, don't construct strawmen, Benny...

	29-10-2004 19:45									#48
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quote: I support 1st trimester abortions only, then.

Then Kerry is still weak on civil liberties.

Would you be willing to ban all abortions done after 13 weeks of pregnancy?

	29-10-2004 19:45									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why include this disclaimer?

Because if there is hope of coming out of it, they are clearly not braindead, and it was a misdiagnosis.

	29-10-2004 19:46									#50
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quote: And it's not humanility isn't relative, don't construct strawmen, Benny...

Not a straw man at all.

There are people like Peter Singer who say that infants are not sentient.

	29-10-2004 19:47									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then Kerry is still weak on civil liberties. Would you be willing to ban all abortions done after 13 weeks of pregnancy?

No, because I really don't give a ****.

I don't have to worry about abortions, and it's not my place to decide.

Kerry is strong on civil liberties, in that he supports abortion. This is more of a liberty than someone who takes the stance of banning abortions...

Civil liberties are not granted to people before they're born, legally.

	29-10-2004 19:48									#52
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So where does that leave individuals with mental retardation? I guess some would be human and some not. In fact, doesnt it make sense that once you establish a level of 'brain activity' to define humanity that that level could be set anywhere? While impractical, we could define anyone with an IQ lower than 140 as subhuman. EDIT: BK is hitting the same points so I'll leave it to him

The problem with both of you is you're twisting the argument to me saying only smart people are human.

Todlers, and mentally retarded people, have very highly developed brains. They are considered sentient.

1st trimester fetus are not considered sentient, and do NOT have a highly developed brain...

Either of you boys want to drop the strawmen, or do you have some more?

	29-10-2004 19:48									#53
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quote: Because if there is hope of coming out of it, they are clearly not braindead, and it was a misdiagnosis.

An unborn child, given time, will attain brain function sufficient for sentience.

If we consider those who are temporarily lacking brain function as persons, then we should also consider unborn children as persons before they attain sentience.

	29-10-2004 19:50									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi An unborn child, given time, will attain brain function sufficient for sentience.

Not if they're aborted, Benny.

quote: If we consider those who are temporarily lacking brain function as persons, then we should also consider unborn children as persons before they attain sentience.

The people who become brain dead were already sentient. They have a life, they have family, they have friends...they're part of this world.

A fetus that has not yet become sentient has not yet become a person.

	29-10-2004 19:51									#55
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quote: Civil liberties are not granted to people before they're born, legally.

Why?

You consider personhood to begin after the first trimester.

Clearly, civil liberties is about granting the protections of personhood to all people, most importantly the right to life.

Therefore, Kerry, is still soft on civil liberties, while Bush, is very strong in comparison.

	29-10-2004 19:53									#56
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quote: Not if they're aborted, Benny.

Neither will a reverseably comatose patient recover if their throat is slashed.

quote: The people who become brain dead were already sentient. They have a life, they have family, they have friends...they're part of this world.

An unborn child has a mother, and a father, they have family.

	29-10-2004 19:55									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why?

Because that's how it is. I didn't write the laws, don't look at me.

quote: Neither will a reverseably comatose patient recover if their throat is slashed.

They had already obtained sentience and entered this world.

I draw a distinction between becoming a person and entering the world, and having the potential to become a person.

quote: An unborn child has a mother, and a father, they have family.

The mother and father decided to abort said child.

	29-10-2004 19:59									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The problem with both of you is you're twisting the argument to me saying only smart people are human. Todlers, and mentally retarded people, have very highly developed brains. They are considered sentient. 1st trimester fetus are not considered sentient, and do NOT have a highly developed brain... Either of you boys want to drop the strawmen, or do you have some more?

There is no strawman. I carefully asked you your position. You made it clear that brain function, and not anatomy, was not the deciding factor. Brain dead individuals, who you've stated are no longer human, have exactly the same 'highly developed brain", it just isnt working.

If one chooses an arbitrary level of brain function in order to define humanity for a fetus then one has to accept that there will be non-fetus who will also "fit the bill".

	29-10-2004 20:01									#59
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Asher:

How do you know the father wanted the abortion?

	29-10-2004 20:02									#60
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH There is no strawman. I carefully asked you your position. You made it clear that brain function, and not anatomy, was not the deciding factor. Brain dead individuals, who you've stated are no longer human, have exactly the same 'highly developed brain", it just isnt working.

I thought the functional part would be assumed...it doesn't matter if someone has a brain and it doesn't work.

quote: If one chooses an arbitrary level of brain function in order to define humanity for a fetus then one has to accept that there will be non-fetus who will also "fit the bill".

No, I think you'd have a hard time proving any sentient human has the developed/active brain of a 1st trimester fetus.

In fact, if you're going to continue that argument, you're going to have to show me some sentient humans have the brain activity of a 1st trimester fetus...