29-10-2004 20:03									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Asher: How do you know the father wanted the abortion?

Because he doesn't want to pay child support.

That is another thing though, I believe both parents should have to consent to an abortion.

	29-10-2004 20:04									#62
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On the other hand, since sexuality is a choice according to you...would it not make more sense to only have sex with females to reproduce, and otherwise have sex with men?



This way we have no unwanted children, AND no abortions!

What do you think, Ben?

	29-10-2004 21:46									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi An unborn child, given time, will attain brain function sufficient for sentience. If we consider those who are temporarily lacking brain function as persons, then we should also consider unborn children as persons before they attain sentience.

So anything that given time and some help will become sentient and human should be given the full rights and protections that humans enjoy even if it doesn't possess any sentience at the moment?

-Drachaosr

	29-10-2004 21:48									#64
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH There is no strawman. I carefully asked you your position. You made it clear that brain function, and not anatomy, was not the deciding factor. Brain dead individuals, who you've stated are no longer human, have exactly the same 'highly developed brain", it just isnt working. If one chooses an arbitrary level of brain function in order to define humanity for a fetus then one has to accept that there will be non-fetus who will also "fit the bill".

Then change it to a "highly developed and functioning" brain. Yes, there will be non-feti, but those people are brain dead and disconnecting them from life support isn't a crime.

Or do you think everyone should be connected to life support to survive as long as possible, even if there is no chance of recovery?

-Drachasor

	29-10-2004 21:55									#65
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quote: That is another thing though, I believe both parents should have to consent to an abortion.

That opens up lots of cans of worms though.

The abortion rights folks, insist that abortion is part of the rights for women, and to require male consent crushes their position.

	29-10-2004 21:57									#66
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quote: On the other hand, since sexuality is a choice according to you...would it not make more sense to only have sex with females to reproduce, and otherwise have sex with men?

No, because I also believe that the two become one flesh. Monogamy is antithetical to switch hitting.

	29-10-2004 22:01									#67
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quote: So anything that given time and some help will become sentient and human should be given the full rights and protections that humans enjoy even if it doesn't possess any sentience at the moment?

Not quite.

First of all, the unborn child is human from conception onwards, as the child of human parents.

Secondly, I define personhood as the capacity to attain sentience, so the child is already a person at conception, rather than becoming a person afterwards,

	29-10-2004 22:01									#68
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quote: I asked "What about Clintion, he signed the Defense of Marriage Act"

Gay marriage wasn't an issue then... you can't really compare the two.

	29-10-2004 22:02									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, because I also believe that the two become one flesh. Monogamy is antithetical to switch hitting.

But you're not the only one involved here.

Would you recommend teenagers have sex with others of their own gender until they are ready to have a baby?

Think of the non-existant lives we'll be saving!

On the other hand, is it really any different? Abstinance kills potential people just as much as abortions do, if not more.

Christian murderers.

	29-10-2004 22:09									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Not quite. First of all, the unborn child is human from conception onwards, as the child of human parents. Secondly, I define personhood as the capacity to attain sentience, so the child is already a person at conception, rather than becoming a person afterwards,

So, anything with the capacity to attain sentience is a person then? You just need something with that potential, you are saying?

-Drachasor

	29-10-2004 22:11									#71
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quote: But you're not the only one involved here. Would you recommend teenagers have sex with others of their own gender until they are ready to have a baby?

No, because the two become one flesh.

quote: On the other hand, is it really any different? Abstinance kills potential people just as much as abortions do, if not more.

Right. That's why I advocate it because it kills unborn children as they are developing in their mother's womb.

	29-10-2004 22:12									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Asher On the other hand, is it really any different? Abstinance kills potential people just as much as abortions do, if not more.

This is absurd. You can't compare "potential people" with a real fetus. You are not killing anything if there isn't even any conception to begin with. But if there is conception and a real growing fetus is developping and you kill it, that's obviously murder.

	29-10-2004 22:13									#73
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quote: So, anything with the capacity to attain sentience is a person then? You just need something with that potential, you are saying?

Not really 'potential' but capacity, in the sense the bucket is there, and has just began to fill.

The bucket is the person, not the water in the bucket.

	29-10-2004 22:13									#74
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat This is absurd. You can't compare "potential people" with a real fetus.

They're both not people. Fair game to me. They're both potential people at varying stages, but both potential people nonetheless...

The difference here relies on your religious interpretation of life, and nothing more.

For you, life begins when conception occurs. For science, and for me, life begins when sentience occurs...

	29-10-2004 22:14									#75
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat This is absurd. You can't compare "potential people" with a real fetus. You are not killing anything if there isn't even any conception to begin with. But if there is conception and a real growing fetus is developping and you kill it, that's obviously murder.

Kenobi's bar was "potential for sentience", which includes sperm and an egg that haven't yet come together.

-Drachasor

	29-10-2004 22:19									#76
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quote: For science, and for me, life begins when sentience occurs

Science has narrowed it down to sometime between after college and before the worms have completely digested your rotting corpse (not necessarily pre-death)... So,

a) when does sentience begin according to you

and

b) why ever bother arguing with some in college? Especially someone who begins every sentence with "my professor says" or "this book says"... might as well say "I can't formulate my opinion, but..."

	29-10-2004 22:20									#77
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quote: Kenobi's bar was "potential for sentience", which includes sperm and an egg that haven't yet come together.

It does not.

Sperm and egg, do not continue to develop, unless they combine to form a zygote. In isolation, they do nothing.

	29-10-2004 22:28									#78
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quote: No, because I also believe that the two become one flesh. Monogamy is antithetical to switch hitting.

You can believe all you want but until you can do the impossible and reconcile faith with reason (and not diminish faith in the process), you're not going to able to successfully communicate your view to those who aren't bowled over by excess verbosity. And I'd know about that .

I do actually broadly agree with your reasoning on the issue of abortion, that of potential consciousness, and that the parasite argument does not hold thanks to my responsibility definitions... however I have an existential argument that holds that the woman can choose to abort before the baby is capable of communicating (my particular definition of "being", which varies per pregnancy. You could say then that I am pro-contraceptive abortion, up until circa four months.

However, we're all men here, how can we possibly hope to solve this problem with nothing but reason from a male perspective. It's rather like using purely reason to support or refute the existence of God... neither can be done by reason alone, and the use of faith makes it inherently subjective. We're bogged down by simplistic thinking at every turn it seems.

	29-10-2004 22:31									#79
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quote: However, we're all men here, how can we possibly hope to solve this problem with nothing but reason from a male perspective.

Come now. surely you have witnessed "female reason"

	29-10-2004 22:53									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It does not. Sperm and egg, do not continue to develop, unless they combine to form a zygote. In isolation, they do nothing.

Just like a fetus that isn't in the womb.

In both cases you need favorable conditions and then life will develop. With the sperm and egg, they need to come together, with the fetus, it needs to be in the womb.

That wasn't your original bar anyhow. You originally said you only needed the potential for sentience. And an egg and sperm together have that potential. Or you could say an egg by itself has that potential in favorable conditions (with a sperm and in the womb). The potential is *clearly* there.

You are going to have a tough time removing the necessity of favorable conditions or limiting them in a reasonable way that that won't result and the need to protect the egg.

-Drachasor

	29-10-2004 23:34									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Then change it to a "highly developed and functioning" brain.

So how do we determine "highly developed and functioning"?

"Highly developed" is a completely arbitrary term. For example, does it require a particular structure, a specific number of dendritic connections, or what?

"Functioning" Ok, we can define that since we can define the opposite i.e. when brain function stops.

quote: Yes, there will be non-feti, but those people are brain dead and disconnecting them from life support isn't a crime.

That depends on the circumstances and the location.

quote: Or do you think everyone should be connected to life support to survive as long as possible, even if there is no chance of recovery? -Drachasor

Per usual, you jump to conclusions. I've merely pointed out that whatever arbitrary definition you use to define humanity in order to condone killing fetuses can be used to condone (at least) limited euthanasia.

BTW, feti is not plural for fetus. Feoti is used by the Brits but they use foetus rather than fetus. Feti- is used as a prefix in place of feto- however.

	29-10-2004 23:50									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It does not. Sperm and egg, do not continue to develop, unless they combine to form a zygote. In isolation, they do nothing.

In isolation, a fetus does nothing.

Go ahead and take it out of the womb ASAP. Test it out for yourself.

	30-10-2004 00:10									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Asher They're both not people. Fair game to me. They're both potential people at varying stages, but both potential people nonetheless... The difference here relies on your religious interpretation of life, and nothing more. For you, life begins when conception occurs. For science, and for me, life begins when sentience occurs...

Well, I disagree with your definition of life. A bacteria is alive but it is not sentient. A worm is alive but it is not sentient. Sentience is not a pre-condition for life. A fetus that has a beating heart, brain activity and blood flowing through it's body has to be alive. There's biological activity, therefore a good indication of life.

Secondly, you may not consider the fetus to be a real person but it is real and it is alive. The "potential person" is nothing, it does not exist. After all, if I masturbate, did I kill my future child because the sperm that was wasted might have been used in the future to create my child? Of course not because my future child does not exist. But a fetus is real and it is alive.

	30-10-2004 00:14									#84
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Per usual, you jump to conclusions. I've merely pointed out that whatever arbitrary definition you use to define humanity in order to condone killing fetuses can be used to condone (at least) limited euthanasia. BTW, feti is not plural for fetus. Feoti is used by the Brits but they use foetus rather than fetus. Feti- is used as a prefix in place of feto- however.

I like "feti" so I used it. I know it isn't the proper plural.

And I wasn't jumping to conclusions, I merely thought I could indicate that in fact you do need some sort of limited euthanasia otherwise you will be connecting everyone to machines to keep them alive in a vegetative state as long as possible.

Euthanasia is indeed needed in some instances.

-Drachasor

	30-10-2004 00:15									#85
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So how do we determine "highly developed and functioning"? "Highly developed" is a completely arbitrary term. For example, does it require a particular structure, a specific number of dendritic connections, or what? "Functioning" Ok, we can define that since we can define the opposite i.e. when brain function stops.

Yes, there is a bit of a grey area, but that grey area isn't near conception, it doesn't happen until much latter.

-Drachasor

	30-10-2004 00:16									#86
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Well, I disagree with your definition of life. A bacteria is alive but it is not sentient. A worm is alive but it is not sentient. Sentience is not a pre-condition for life.

I support the abortion of bacteria and worms as well, for consistency.

Human life doesn't begin until the mind works. Otherwise it's all plumbing...

quote: After all, if I masturbate, did I kill my future child because the sperm that was wasted might have been used in the future to create my child?

Look at it this way: If you have sex and that sperm meets and egg, which is then aborted...the child is not born.

If you masturbate and that same sperm never meets an egg...the child is not born.

It doesn't matter in the end. The sticking point is you thinking a mass of cells in a parasitic ( ) relationship means life. Human life, to me, requires sentience.

	30-10-2004 00:19									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Look at it this way: If you have sex and that sperm meets and egg, which is then aborted...the child is not born. If you masturbate and that same sperm never meets an egg...the child is not born. It doesn't matter in the end. The sticking point is you thinking a mass of cells in a parasitic ( ) relationship means life. Human life, to me, requires sentience.

Or if you are a woman, and have a period, then you have killed a potential child.

Women should clearly get pregnant as much as possible.....and eventually eggs should be harvested, fertilized, and babies grown in artificial wombs.

-Drachasor

	30-10-2004 00:20									#88
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Of course, this sort of sticking point is where you end up if you decide not to try a faith-based arguement.

The Catholic Church has the stance that the soul enters the 'body' at conception. Easier arguements then once you accept that (not that I do).

-Drachasor

	30-10-2004 00:22									#89
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That is what it comes down to, but Ben will never admit his reasoning is a religious one.

	30-10-2004 00:24									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That is what it comes down to, but Ben will never admit his reasoning is a religious one.

Ben has trouble admitting that faith is not reason. He seems to feel there is a fundamental problem with not having a wholly rational arguement for a belief, and that gets him into a lot of trouble when arguing over religious issues because he is so religious.

-Drachasor