29-10-2004 10:27									#1
	I debate a college Democrat. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I was at a Rock the Vote Party tonight, and I saw that the VP of the University of Pittsburgh College Dems was there. He had on a label saying "Ask me about civil rights!" So I did and asked about Kerry on civil rights. He asked me what specifically I meant. So I asked "Is Kerry for or against Civil Rights?"

He said that Kerry was for it, and said that bush was horrible on issues relating to GLBT, minorities. I didn't hear the "GLBT" part at first, so I asked him what he said. He repeated "GLBT", and said that BUsh had been the most hateful president ever towards homosexuals. I asked "What about Clintion, he signed the Defense of Marriage Act" Then this other College Democrat comes up and said "Oh yeah, well Bush supports the Federal Marriage Amendment!!" I pointed out to him that the President has no say on Constitutional Amendments, that it is a matter for Congress and the State Legislatures. He said "Ya, well he is influential in getting people to support it" I asked him to provide evidence, but he kept BAMing the same point. I asked him to show me one person who Bush swayed into supporting the FMA who didn't support it previously. At this point he started to get mad at me, called me a fool, and walked away.

I was later around a friend of mine, and this person comes back and asks if he thought the President swayed people towards supporting the FMA. He was like "Ya, I guess". He yelled at me "SEE!". So I asked him again for him to support his statement that the President was swaying people into supporting the FMA. He then yelled at me" I don't care what you think, I care what he thinks!(pointing to my friend). He then stormed away.

Oh well.

	29-10-2004 10:31									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well Bush doesn't necessarily sway people, but he does have the power to keep it on the table.

If anything its more of an attempt to shore up Bush support among poorer social conservatives than a real attempt to ammend the constitution, it'd never get the support of 3/4 of the Legislatures.

	29-10-2004 10:32									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Bush has a strong symbolic role as the President of the US. He is instrumental in the agenda-setting, and he is instrumental in defining the terms of the debate. Besides, thanks to his position as leader, he is likely to sway people to his views (those people who think they must "be united behind one leader").

	29-10-2004 10:36									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Bush has a strong symbolic role as the President of the US. He is instrumental in the agenda-setting, and he is instrumental in defining the terms of the debate. Besides, thanks to his position as leader, he is likely to sway people to his views (those people who think they must "be united behind one leader").

It's a good thing that we have French people on our forum, so that they can explain to us the intricacies of our political system and how the formation of political beliefsin this country goes.

	29-10-2004 10:38									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It's a good thing that we have French people on our forum, so that they can explain to us the intricacies of our political system and how the formation of political beliefsin this country goes.

And what was wrong in what I just wrote?

	29-10-2004 10:38									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Shi, I think he was well in his place to call you a fool if you think the President has no influence over the people in his party.

	29-10-2004 10:42									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And what was wrong in what I just wrote?

You're totally correct. The President has tremendous power in rallying votes for policy preferences and he can use the bully pulpit to set the agenda. The President may not have a vote on the floor, but he is for all intents and purposes a super-legislator, capable of changing outcomes on both the federal and state level.

	29-10-2004 10:43									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It's a good thing that we have French people on our forum, so that they can explain to us the intricacies of our political system and how the formation of political beliefsin this country goes.

Article II, Sec 3
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient;

	29-10-2004 10:43									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ You're totally correct.

That can't be.


I'm French

	29-10-2004 10:45									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

On a serious note, it's most likely in most cases people support the President because they are opposed to gay marriage, rather then the other way around with people oppposing gay marriage because of the President. If you ask someone why the oppose gay marriage, they'll likely say it's because of their religious or other philosophical beliefs. On issues such as tax policy it's quite possible the Pres has a great deal of influence, but on emotional "gut" issues such as gay marriage that are relatively easy to understand, it seems unlikely he would sway too many people.

But in any case I think you would be able to see from my "Is Kerry for or against Civil Rights?" I was more playing around in that case

	29-10-2004 10:46									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ You're totally correct. The President has tremendous power in rallying votes for policy preferences and he can use the bully pulpit to set the agenda. The President may not have a vote on the floor, but he is for all intents and purposes a super-legislator, capable of changing outcomes on both the federal and state level.

The FMA came up on the bequest of Congress on it's own rather then through the President pushing it. It's more of a case of the President saying OK to it to avoid pissing off his base rather then trying to actually influence anyone towards it.

	29-10-2004 10:47									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Bush has a strong symbolic role as the President of the US. He is instrumental in the agenda-setting, and he is instrumental in defining the terms of the debate. Besides, thanks to his position as leader, he is likely to sway people to his views (those people who think they must "be united behind one leader").

Bingo. To think Bush's support for an Amendment to Ban Homosexual Marriage has no impact is to be bordering on the naive.

	29-10-2004 11:17									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Dude, you have some seriously f*cked-up democrats

	29-10-2004 11:21									#14
	Got spare money?

Huangdi, the lesson is: next time you think you've won, double check on Poly.

	29-10-2004 11:25									#15
	Got spare money?

In reality Bush has oflate come out and said he support civil unions just not redefining marriage.

Already the religous right has gotten their panties in a bunch over how Bush has let them down.

	29-10-2004 13:27									#16
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It's a good thing that we have French people on our forum, so that they can explain to us the intricacies of our political system and how the formation of political beliefsin this country goes.

why even post anything at all then dipshit

	29-10-2004 13:28									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

sorry,

YOURE SO RIGHT SHI! WAY TO TELL THAT DEMOCRAT WHAT YOU THINK AND MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE A FOOL!!!!

	29-10-2004 18:42									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Y'all need to polish up your technique.

I debate with liberals all the time. The key is to wind them up, so that they start attacking you and your family rather than debating the issue at hand.

	29-10-2004 18:42									#19
	Re: I debate a college Democrat. Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I pointed out to him that the President has no say on Constitutional Amendments, that it is a matter for Congress and the State Legislatures. He said "Ya, well he is influential in getting people to support it" I asked him to provide evidence, but he kept BAMing the same point. I asked him to show me one person who Bush swayed into supporting the FMA who didn't support it previously. At this point he started to get mad at me, called me a fool, and walked away.

I call BS -- Bush has declared a number of times, publicly, that he strongly believes that marriage is only between a man and a woman. THIS implies his strong support for the amendment of bigotry and discrimination.

AND I doubt Bush would have ever vetoed it, had it successfully passed the legislature, which it did not.

	29-10-2004 18:44									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

You should have said that while GBLT may be a civil liberties issue, what about unborn children?

Surely Kerry is soft on civil liberties.

	29-10-2004 18:46									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Y'all need to polish up your technique. I debate with liberals all the time. The key is to wind them up, so that they start attacking you and your family rather than debating the issue at hand.

That's actually a useful technique against anyone holding beliefs they cannot logically explain.

Tends to work well on religionistas, actually...

-Arrian

	29-10-2004 18:49									#22
	Re: I debate a college Democrat. Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi He said that Kerry was for it, and said that bush was horrible on issues relating to GLBT, minorities. I didn't hear the "GLBT" part at first, so I asked him what he said. He repeated "GLBT", and said that BUsh had been the most hateful president ever towards homosexuals. I asked "What about Clintion, he signed the Defense of Marriage Act" Then this other College Democrat comes up and said "Oh yeah, well Bush supports the Federal Marriage Amendment!!" I pointed out to him that the President has no say on Constitutional Amendments, that it is a matter for Congress and the State Legislatures. He said "Ya, well he is influential in getting people to support it" I asked him to provide evidence, but he kept BAMing the same point.

This examplifies the stereotype that some democrats have about conservatives. If you are a conservative you are automatically a racist, bigot, sexist homophobe. So Bush is a conservative so he must be anti-minority regardless of the fact that his policies of tax cuts and faith based charities have helped minorities improve their lives. If you are a democrat or a liberal you are automatically a champion for minorities. Kerry actually opposes gay marriage but he is automatically considered pro-gay because he is a democrat.

	29-10-2004 18:51									#23
	Re: Re: I debate a college Democrat. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat This examplifies the stereotype that some democrats have about conservatives. If you are a conservative you are automatically a racist, bigot, sexist homophobe. If you are a democrat or a liberal you are automatically a champion for minorities.

I'm glad I'm not a liberal who thinks like this. Bill Clinton lost some of his dignity by caving into the Republican Congress, by supporting the DoMA -- definitely not a champion for minorities there.

	29-10-2004 19:17									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Tends to work well on religionistas, actually...

Nice to know we have something in common with Liberals.

	29-10-2004 19:18									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Arrian quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Y'all need to polish up your technique. I debate with liberals all the time. The key is to wind them up, so that they start attacking you and your family rather than debating the issue at hand. That's actually a useful technique against anyone holding beliefs they cannot logically explain. Tends to work well on religionistas, actually... -Arrian

Isn't that technique more useful if you can't actually argue the issues? Otherwise one would actually talk about the issues, yes?

-Drachasor

	29-10-2004 19:20									#26
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You should have said that while GBLT may be a civil liberties issue, what about unborn children? Surely Kerry is soft on civil liberties.

Because he gives women the liberty to choose?

If people don't consider 1st and 2nd trimester fetus' as human (which they aren't), then your argument fails.

To debate someone adequately, you need to be able to see both sides. Something you've been indoctrined to not understand...

	29-10-2004 19:21									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You are talking about the issues.

But you make your point in such a way as to wind the Liberals up.

Saying that Kerry is soft on civil liberties, because he permits the weakest people to be killed, is just one way of doing this.

	29-10-2004 19:22									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Definitely biting today!

3 so far.

	29-10-2004 19:23									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The best way to debate with people like Ben is to understand that he's been brainwashed as a child and has no hope of ever being rational or debating logically, or even making sense.

He'll make baffling arguments, and then someone tie them all back to the bible.

	29-10-2004 19:24									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Definitely biting today! 3 so far.

That wasn't a bite, it was a counter-troll.

Make that one for me.