31-10-2004 08:40									#1
	NEWS: Latest shenanigans - game paused again Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, CDG has certainly got my PM to them about us attacking them as well - they posted at the UN a roleplay-sounding post about how they were being attacked by PAL and Apolyton, and that this would be CDG's greatest hour... etc. etc.

FP popped up with an official complaint, insisting that these posts gave away information they shouldn't have and were against the rules. Admin FortyJ has posted in the turn tracker that the game is paused where it got to (GWT, after BAT, who are after us) until he can sort things out. Here is the link to the offending thread at the UN. I found this out thanks to an email from FP mentioning it, that I will post in the correspondence thread (not much info though).

Frankly, I think this is nonsense - I see nothing against the rules about CDG's thread, and in the words of someone in chat just now, 'Fried's message makes him look like a *****'. I think it's a bit much to make an official complaint about this.

I'm intending that we just stay out of this completely. Whatever I think, this need not concern us as it is right now. If FortyJ asks for our team opinion, then we will need to consider it further, but otherwise I hope we'll just ignore this unless it starts to delay the save considerably.

	31-10-2004 12:49									#2
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I find FP's position right. Usually you need to build an embassy to see if two civs are at war or not. With this post they are also alarming the other two we are allied. IMO the declaration shouldn't be so "official".

	31-10-2004 16:19									#3
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I believe this would or should set off a yellow light where I would ask the admins first.

And I told MREX that politely in the forum.

I do agree that F-P went overboard.

Lets see what comes of this.

You know this isn't the first time CDG did something in the "yellow zone" with asking first.

(The swapping F8 screens with Trip without telling anyone, remember?)

	31-10-2004 16:20									#4
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In the mean time lets use the down time for some planning.

War planning at least

	31-10-2004 16:48									#5
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I just posted another email from F-P.

It seems that CDG is in violation of another rule. They were trying to work a deal with PAL where they got assimilated in exchange to make sure that we did not make it to the next game.

(ie exchange CDG's cities for making sure PAL attacks us and eliminates us.)

I guess MREX isn't such a great friend to Apoly afterallllll.........

And quite frankly and this is from me personally, Im kind of glad he ISN't going to join our team.

	31-10-2004 19:22									#6
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I just checked those emails - I have to crash, but PAL has sent us an excerpt from a chat their representative maxfin had with Micaelis Rex of CDG. CDG said they would surrender all cities to PAL on the provisos that none would go to PAL, PAL would not attack CDG, and PAL agreed to wipe US out.

Now this IS in violation of a rule, IMO. The rule violated states that a civ may not gift cities to another civ for the purpose of aiding in the destruction of another team. Although we asked CDG to surrender (something that it seems will not be happening now ), that seems to me to be different. There would have been no strings attached to that. This back-alley deal is a lot more suspicious. Although my personal opinion posted above that there is not much to worry about from CDG's UN posts, at first glance this seems to be a bit more serious of a rule breach.

Anyway, if it hasn't been done by then, I will post the emails sent in the morning, with perhaps a little more thought.

	31-10-2004 21:36									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Anyway, if it hasn't been done by then, I will post the emails sent in the morning, with perhaps a little more thought.

Have a good nights sleep, I got the emails posted in the FA Topped thread.

	01-11-2004 02:30									#8
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Got the emails also. The first one (the thread) I think FP overreacted and that by itself is what will warn the other two teams to join forces or die. It was a gray issue imho until FP posted.

Now, the other thing is a serious breach. He is basicall saying "We will surrender completely, but you have to take out Poly" The fact that FP posted teh actual chat makes me much more likely to trust him than I would have before.

	01-11-2004 02:58									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Heh - I never though CDG would actually take this that seriously. If I was in their shoes, I'd be trying to get us to take on PAL...

But, nevermind. I'm glad PAL revealed this information, but, in my opinion, F-P's taking this too far. Suspension or no suspension, they're screwed - I'd rather have a more interesting battle.
Besides, I'd rather not have to delay the entire game because of this dispute.

	01-11-2004 03:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Got the emails also. The first one (the thread) I think FP overreacted and that by itself is what will warn the other two teams to join forces or die. It was a gray issue imho until FP posted. Now, the other thing is a serious breach. He is basicall saying "We will surrender completely, but you have to take out Poly" The fact that FP posted teh actual chat makes me much more likely to trust him than I would have before.

My thoughts precisely.

	01-11-2004 04:20									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

With that said, Octy, having CDG skip a turn now would be VERY nice, as it means we have a free shot at Shaharazade, before they could abandon it, disband anything, or move reinforcements in.

	01-11-2004 05:26									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Guys, I think you maybe missing the point.

This is a violation of the rules (at least IMHO), although it may diminish our eventual victory, if the admin determines it is against the rules they need to be punished.

Unfortunately we needed this ridiculously large rule set because of this reason because sometimes people still dont want to be fair. Im kind of surprised CDG did this but they did it none the less. They need to be punished.

	01-11-2004 05:48									#13
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Just have them skip their turn. That's enough punishment.

	01-11-2004 05:52									#14
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Well it maybe enough but they will have to suffer whatever the rule was we agreed too.

Thats what we all decided, and voted upon before the game started.

Its called "facing the consequences".

	01-11-2004 05:54									#15
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I was under the impression that the rules did state they had to miss a turn?

	01-11-2004 07:30									#16
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Wars always get ugly and get personal. I suppose we should have anticipated that CDG would take it very hard when we suddenly attacked them. However, we did make sure to do so in the most neutral and least offensive mannor. We didn't break any treaties, make any false promises, or deliborately fool them. However, with our past cooperation they probably assumed that they could trust us too much. It's their fault, but emotionally they're going to be bitter regardless of what we did.

At this point, let's be sure to let F-P look like the *ss who's complaining about rules violations no matter how large or small they actually are. We need to stay out of any public bickering. Let's give private support to F-P, give the admin our opinion privately if asked, and keep our views and our involvement in this out of the public as much as possible.

Because this is only game 1. Game 2 is the one that matters. We have to consider how our actions now will effect others' opinions of us in the next game.

--Togas

	01-11-2004 08:32									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Looking at the last save, we can expect to gain at most 4 cities from them, including the one that PAL already took. Unfortunately, all of their other cities are size 1 and have no culture. D@mn.

	01-11-2004 08:39									#18
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Lets hope they pop up in pop quickly and before they can use it to pop rush

	01-11-2004 08:51									#19
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I wonder, then - Maybe we could take advantage of CDG's skipped turns by NOT attacking during those turns. It's time for CDG's cities to grow on auto-pilot, for us to reduce war weariness by not having a declared war during the period, and to easily position forces inside CDG for easy attack later on.

	01-11-2004 09:25									#20
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And one less possible turn of Anarchy GA.

	01-11-2004 23:08									#21
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we will not get a GA unless we attack with hoplites
and we will not attack with them, right?

	01-11-2004 23:15									#22
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If I was CDG I would throw a reg warrior or spear at the Hoplites. I would know that I was going to lose, and just try to do as much damage as possible. Losing a GA, enven a small portion is going to be a blow.

	04-11-2004 15:47									#23
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The game is moving again, and FortyJ wants to know what we want to do about CDG's cheating. And yes he called it a violation of the rules.

He is torn between doing something and just letting it go since CDG will be dead soon anyway.

I think they should be punish either way, especially since I (and others) put an ENORMOUS amount of time into this incredibly huge rule set. Im not about to NOT use it, Whats the point then?

And I think this would just set a bad precedent for the future.:

"Hey CDG got away with it, so nothing will happen" type of thing.

But then Im old fashioned and believe in corporal punishment

Thoughts?

We should be getting a save sometime today

	04-11-2004 18:48									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree. They should be punished. I would say a 1 turn skip for each violation. So, as there are 2 violations, skip 2 turns. It will not be enough to probably let any of their cities gain in pop so we would take them as opposed to burn them, but it would seal their fait for sure in that they wouldn’t have the opportunity to place a settler on a boat.

Another option that isn’t covered by the rules (but that can be presented to CDG if they so choose) is to have them gift us Shah and gift PAL no-name. Both these cities would be destroyed normally, and they would have to give a 1 turn no attack clause so we could properly defend the cities, but it would be of great help to us in this game. Of course, as that is probably the last thing they want to do….. but it never hurts to try.

	04-11-2004 18:57									#25
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I dont think we can consider that GodKing, there are rules and punishments that go with each violation of the rule.

For there posting information in the open forum, its a violation of rule 1.7. Bold added by me

quote: 1.7 - Exchange of Contact Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade any sort of contact information until the requisite tech is discovered. A simple statement to team 'Z' that you live next to team 'Y' is allowable so long as no transactions are made or brokered between the two. Definition: A team trading anything for any location or contact information before allowed in-game. Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing contact and location information to be traded before they are allowed in-game. Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any contact or location information trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule. Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (2-20 Turns)

	04-11-2004 18:58									#26
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Ill go find the other rule next

	04-11-2004 19:02									#27
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This is the rule they broke with the PAL chat. BOLD added by me

quote: 1.8 Enjoining Teams Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade multiple cities with the intent of joining teams to destroy another team and keep both teams alive to survive to the end. If a team decides to drop out however, its players are allowed to change teams as permitted under Section 0.3. Definition: A team trading one or more cities to another team for the purpose of either granting that team an advantage (premature contact with another civ, map information, etc.), or denying an aggressor the right of conquest. Trading and or gifiting cities is permitted, but each transaction shall be reviewed by the administrators of the game. If a specific transaction is considered to be in violation of the spirit of this law, then the traded/gifted cities may be forcibly returned to their original owner(s) or simply abandoned at the sole discretion of the administrators. As a general rule, the administrators will consider city gifts/trades that are temporary in nature (ie. only a few turns in duration) and those given/traded for the purpose of granting a team an advantage (premature contact, map information, etc.) or to deny another team the right of conquest to be against the spirit of this law. Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing contact and location information to be traded before they are allowed in-game or to unfairly prevent a conquering civ from taking your cities. Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any contact or location information trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule. Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns and/or Cities), Repeat Offense - Red (5+ turns, Double cities given, and possible ejection, suspension, or expulsion).

	04-11-2004 19:05									#28
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I believe it would be sort of sleezy to ask for cities. I personally dont want to go there.

But I believe we should DEMAND at least a one turn suspension for each offense for a total of two turns.

What say ye?

	04-11-2004 21:57									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sounds excellent. Or we can blow off the UN and go our own way...

	04-11-2004 23:32									#30
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I don't mind sounding a bit sleazy....... heck, I am.

It was just a "lets get greedy idea".

I think the minimum is what we should be asking for, as it will not make that real of a difference.