01-11-2004 22:20									#1
	RE: AI Advantage Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Just how much of an advantge does the AI have. I am playing as the Sumerians on Emperor level. My main rival is the Iroquois. I am playing as a Republic and the AI is Fascist. The AI is 5 techs ahead of me, has a fortune in the bank and a very large navy and army. Meanwhile, I am pushing the techs as hard as possible, so have little money while trying to maintain a large enough army. and no navy at all.

Fortunately, I was able to get several cavalry armies and the Iroquois has no rubber so had no infantry. So I was able to take down 5 of their cities before my cities started to burn due to war weariness.

Now, the AI has an air force and tanks while I am still trying to research up to that level, so I am on the defensive.

My question is how the AI is able to get so many techs ahead of me while being Fascist and maintaining a huge money lead and a large army and navy.

	02-11-2004 00:56									#2
	Support Apolyton

I am going out right now, but in 30-40 I can go into some details.

IIRC the AI pays 80% for things that you pay 100% for. It get some free unit support. So research is cheaper for it and it will trade techs to other civ and gain an edge.

The more civs still in the game the cheaper tech is for the AI and the more expensive it is for you.

Is this a pangea, what is map size and water content?

Last edited by vmxa1 on 02-11-2004 at 01:55

	02-11-2004 02:21									#3
	Re: RE: AI Advantage Remove this text

Iroq is Ag and Comm (iirc), so they will be able to grow quickly and have extra income, all things equal. They have an early and strong UU for its era. This means they will be able to handle other civs in any early wars.

The good and bad news is the same. the UU can get them a very early GA. This can be beneficial to get them an early lead. If they use it well (for an AI), they can gain more land and become dominate.

The AI's love facism and will beeline for it in most cases. It is quite useful in higher levels of difficulty for them. They get to pop rush, they get lots of unit support. Workers are double speed (this is useless to them at sid, they won't have any workers left).

Being 5 techs back at the industrial age at emperor is not uncommon, but is bad. It suggest that you have not done the best of jobs with your empire or where stunted by the AG civ taking more land than it should have.

This is the point in the game where you should be pulling ahead or at least be even in reserach.

I cannot really speak to the Summerians as I almost never play them. I am not fond of science for a trait. I would rather have commerce or Ag or even industrial. This is just a preference and may or may not be a better choice.

One thing I do not want is that extremely early UU with no extra movement. I do not want to have to use it right away, which is a common occurence.

Unit support in republic is a function of the number and size of your cities. So if you do not have your fair share and they are not getting over size 6, you will pay more. Hence have less money to spend.

You should be able to wage war without rioting, if you have done a good job of building markets and getting a few luxs. You must watch those cities very close when at war.

It is very important to be first to tanks, IMO. The best way to insure that is to build the ToE.

Be sure that you are on the 1.22 patch to fix the gold bug.

Be sure to get in a few techs first so you can trade aroudn and get tech and gold. Make some lux deals if you can to get income as that helps your research and slows theirs. Try to avoid giving cash to the top dog.

	03-11-2004 01:11									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I did get ToE and have been able to catch up with my free tech in the new age. Am building Modern Armor as quickly as I can. Have only 2 luxuries with 2 more acquired by trade. THe map is large with two continents.

The Iroquois have sabotaged production in a couple of cities and are promoting discontent in a border city. I got a spy initially with them but the spy was discovered and now I cannot get a new one.

Still have a VP edge and so think that I can eke out a win.

	03-11-2004 19:42									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

build a million MA with some nukes and go on a rampage! the ai stinks at combat,just use your troops better than theirs and you can still win,unless time runs out.



edit:and get factorys and the power plants in your core citys.turn science to zero when you get the MA tech and mobolize when your ready,or at least thats what i always do

and raze captured citys so you dont accidentally win by domination

	07-11-2004 08:00									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

in CIVIII is there a max city limit before unhappiness sets in or is it just with war weariness?

In CTP the govt's are so restrictive to city limits

Gramps

	07-11-2004 08:23									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't think there is any implications for unhappiness and the number of cties one has. It should only affect the corrution.

Unhappiness is impacted by so many factors:

war/pop size/ pop makeup/luxs/ connection to the cap, just to name the ones that come to mind.

	07-11-2004 08:28									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I don't think there is any implications for unhappiness and the number of cties one has. It should only affect the corrution. Unhappiness is impacted by so many factors: war/pop size/ pop makeup/luxs/ connection to the cap, just to name the ones that come to mind.

in CTP if a govt has say 40 cities max..you could get away with 43-44 but beyond that it is gruelling to keep unhappiness under control

Thanks

Gramps

	07-11-2004 13:22									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll in CTP if a govt has say 40 cities max..you could get away with 43-44 but beyond that it is gruelling to keep unhappiness under control

In Civ3, corruption does this. The effects are probably comparable - loss of overall productivity.

	08-11-2004 00:05									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

On Emperor:

AI gets to produce at 80% normal cost.
Humans have to pay 120% normal science cost.
AI has max 3 turns anarchy between govts.
AI gets significant extra free support of units, both global and per city.
AI starts with a few extra units, including an extra settler

On corruption and waste, Fascism has less of it than Republic. Their workers also work faster.

If you have about 1.8 times the number of units as max allowed under Republic, you'd be better off as a Democracy to get rid of the 2X the over the limit cost of Republic, combined with the reduced corruption and waste of Democracy, and the 50% worker speed bonus.

	08-11-2004 01:37									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn On Emperor: AI gets to produce at 80% normal cost. Humans have to pay 120% normal science cost. AI has max 3 turns anarchy between govts. AI gets significant extra free support of units, both global and per city. AI starts with a few extra units, including an extra settler On corruption and waste, Fascism has less of it than Republic. Their workers also work faster. If you have about 1.8 times the number of units as max allowed under Republic, you'd be better off as a Democracy to get rid of the 2X the over the limit cost of Republic, combined with the reduced corruption and waste of Democracy, and the 50% worker speed bonus.

thanks

lots to learn
heck i am still learning ctp

Gramps

	08-11-2004 01:46									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Here is the break down:


Civilizations III Conquests 1.0


code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chief. Warlord Regent Monarch Emp. Demigod Deity Sid

AI Bonuses
Def Land Units 0 0 0 2 4 6 8 12
Off Land Units 0 0 0 1 2 3 4 6
Start unit type 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2
Start unit type 2 0 0 0 0 1 2 2 4
Extra free support 0 0 0 4 8 12 16 24
Bonus for each city 0 0 0 1 2 3 4 8
Max gov transition 0 0 0 4 3 2 2 1
Cost factor 20 12 10 9 8 7 6 4
AI to AI trade 110 120 130 140 150 160 170 200

Other variables
Citizens born content 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Citizens quelled 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Attack bonus vs barbs 800 400 200 100 50 25 0 0
Percent optimal cities 100 95 90 85 80 70 60 50 -----------------------------------------------------------

Number of Defensive Land Units (Additional AI Starting Units)
Determines how many extra defensive land units the AI will start with on the selected difficulty level. To determine which unit is used, the AI will determine which available unit (e.g. units that can currently be built) is its best defender.

Number of Offensive Land Units (Additional AI Starting Units)
Determines how many extra offensive land units the AI will start with on the selected difficulty level. To determine which unit is used, the AI will determine which available unit (e.g. units that can currently be built) is its best attacker.

Number of Start Unit Type 1 (Additional AI Starting Units)
Determines how many extra type 1 start units the AI will start with on the selected difficulty level. This corresponds to the default start unit 1 on the general settings page (normally a worker).

Number of Start Unit Type 2 (Additional AI Starting Units)
Determines how many extra type 2 start units the AI will start with on the selected difficulty level. This corresponds to the default start unit 2 on the general settings page (normally a settler).

Additional Free Support (AI Unit Support Bonuses)
Determines how many extra units the AI can support, in addition to any existing governmental bonuses, on the selected difficulty level. Note that this number is cumulative with all other support bonuses.

Bonus for Each City (AI Unit Support Bonuses)
Determines how many extra units the AI can support per city, in addition to any existing governmental bonuses, on the selected difficulty level. Note that this number is cumulative with all other support bonuses

Max Government Transition Time (AI Bonuses)
Determines the maximum number of turns the AI must remain in the transition government type (default is Anarchy) before transitioning to the newly selected government type. Setting this number lower will reduce the negative effects of switching governments. The default value of zero means there is no maximum to how long this can take.

Cost Factor (AI Bonuses)
Determines the cost factor that is applied to AI growth, shields, and research. The player's cost factor is always 10. Choosing a value higher than 10 means the AI will be at a disadvantage, while choosing a value lower than 10 means the AI will be at an advantage.

AI to AI trade rate (AI Bonuses)
Determines the percentage multiplier used in AI – AI trade sessions on the selected difficulty level. This value is a percentage (acceptable values range from 100% to 1000%) which is multiplied by the total value (in gold) of the initiating civ’s offerings, which is used by the "other" AI civ to determine whether a deal is acceptable or not. For example, with a rate of 120, an AI civ offering 100 gold to another AI civ for something would actually be worth 120 gold to the other AI civ.

This rate directly affects the frequency and aggressiveness with which AI civs trade amongst themselves.

Number of Citizens Born Content
Determines how many citizens in a new city are born content for the selected difficulty level. The lower the number, the more difficult the game will be.

Number of Citizens Quelled by Military
Determines how many rioting-citizens are quelled with the presence of military units.

Attack Bonus Against Barbarians
Determines the attack bonus enjoyed by any player (human or AI) against barbarians. A value of zero means the barbarians have no combat disadvantage, thus a barbarian warrior would be as powerful as the warrior of any player in the game.

Percentage of Optimal Cities
Determines what percentage of the optimal number of cities setting (found on the world sizes page) is actually optimal on the selected difficulty level. If this value is 100%, the optimal number of cities will be equal to the default setting for the given world size. At 50%, the optimal number of cities is halved. At 200%, the optimal number of cities is doubled. This value will not match the value on the World Sizes page exactly because the corruption setting of the player's government type is also a modifier.

	08-11-2004 01:55									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, I dont feel so bad that I aint playing on Sid Level then

I usually play a new game on Hardest level first but believe I chose wisely in taking 2nd from bottom to try and learn

Additionally, this is also why, with very limited experience I dove headlong into playing CIVIII Conquests

I figure I gotta get wet might as well go in over my head

Thanks all

Gramps

	08-11-2004 05:01									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You will love sid, all the pain is so nice when it ends.

	11-11-2004 05:15									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Pain? Try head banging anger!

I ussually play on Emporer level, and have been able to keep on top of the AI and win most of my games. I would rarely get mad at the AI, and lose to it, except when I lose a series of pathetic defeats because of the lovely RNG.

I tried a Sid game just to see what happened....and I was utterly shocked.

Not only did the AI manage to make it into the midevil age before 1000 B.C., it would continuely outclass me in every aspect of the game. Not only was I "weak" compared to every other nation, I could barely get my foot though the door with colonization.

And it was the icing on the cake when the imperialistic Germany decided it would stomp me under its knights and Mid. Infantry. Not only did it start the war, but I managed to bribe my neighbors into go into war against me. So now I faced three technologicaly, economicaly, and militarily superior AIs.

I got so red that I wanted to punch a hole into my monitor screen. Luckily though, I had a stress ball near-by and put Mozart on to cool me down.

I then turned the game on and reflected on my game....concluding the AI was a cheating ***** and I never wanted to do that difficulty again!

In conclusion, if you arn't ...God... I don't see you could beat that difficulty!

Yours truely...
Ron

	11-11-2004 06:35									#16
	Got spare money?

I am not god, not even a great player, but I have beat it many times and a few others have as well.

We have some threads on the games here, but you need a few things.

NO scientific civs in the game, no pangea and lots of water. No huts. Then it is just a matter of grinding it out.

Well I suppose it coudl be done with out those handicaps, but I have not been able to beat it on pangea so far, only contients and islands. Maps at least std or larger. Maybe a tiny map woudl alter it.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 13-11-2004 at 08:04

	13-11-2004 07:13									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

So very cold

i know its not as immpressive as the Beyond Sid game,but i couldnt find it

	13-11-2004 08:06									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I remember them both, lots of good reading and of course Aeson is a master player and Bamspeedy knows the game very well.

You did know that the Beyond Sid is on CFC.

	14-11-2004 06:05									#19
	Support Apolyton

yep.cant find it means i am to lazy to go there

	14-11-2004 09:45									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

At least you're honest

	14-11-2004 21:01									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

so Sid Level is left to the Brave at Heart or chosen few whom are masters at the game, of which i cannot stand at either portal...

	14-11-2004 22:24									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I hadn't played a new Civ game for a few months until yesterday. I used to play Monarch or Emp., but at Emp yesterday I was totally clueless. So I'm back to Monarch and thinking I shall be an old greybeard before I reach Sid.
Reading this thread has inspired me to jump right ahead and try Sid on a large map, islands, and no sci civs (as soon as I get home).
Y'know, if not for inspirational threads like this I'd probably never gone past Regent level.

	14-11-2004 22:34									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thats also the reason I come to these threads and which prompted me to get involved in over a dozen PBEM games..nothing ventured nothing gained.

Keep 'em coming folks, some of us out here do appreciate all the efforts

Gramps

	14-11-2004 23:15									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Aramis good luck on the game. If you want to increase your chances of success make the map huge and play with a few less than standard civs.

The reason is to keep the contacts down as long as possible and the fewer civs and longer times till contacts will lower the research rate. Same with the scientific civs. You want to slow the tech rate as much as you can. The huge make also makes techs more expensive.

If that is still too harsh, eliminate as many seafaring civs as you can, again to slow the contacts.

	14-11-2004 23:32									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Aramis good luck on the game. If you want to increase your chances of success make the map huge and play with a few less than standard civs. The reason is to keep the contacts down as long as possible and the fewer civs and longer times till contacts will lower the research rate. Same with the scientific civs. You want to slow the tech rate as much as you can. The huge make also makes techs more expensive. If that is still too harsh, eliminate as many seafaring civs as you can, again to slow the contacts.

well..I am on right road I reckon, because thats what i usually do

I enjoy longer games

what I dont enjoy is getting started and getting exterminated

Gramps "appreciate community help" Troll

	14-11-2004 23:46									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well a huge map at any level will surely be a long game.

	14-11-2004 23:52									#27
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well a huge map at any level will surely be a long game.

In CTP I made a Great Big Map..(tweaked const.txt files..all sorts of weird stuff happened including the ai wandered...for like 100's of turns not settling..)

I havent tweaked the CIVIII map sizes too much...but I do enjoy scenario making...

I also enjoy expediting tech so that once all civs have then you have a nice long game to play instead of say taking all game to research then only 50 turns or so to uses..

Ok..Thanks again all

Gramps

	15-11-2004 01:35									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll Keep 'em coming folks, some of us out here do appreciate all the efforts Gramps

I wholeheartly second this.

	15-11-2004 02:42									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll I also enjoy expediting tech so that once all civs have then you have a nice long game to play instead of say taking all game to research then only 50 turns or so to uses.. Ok..Thanks again all Gramps

If you do a conquest only game you should be able to get in lots of turn with most of the tech. Theproblem is that in C3C they have lethal bombardment and it can get real ugly.

It is no fun to have them keep sinking ships and busting your freshly made temple or barracks. Especially when you are trying to get the cultural border to move out to cover something you want.

	15-11-2004 02:50									#30
	Suffering from ads?

I am really finding the ai to be great..or maybe I should say the ai is responsive versus limited retaliation in CTP


I also enjoy the barbas building encampments and attacking in groups versus not at all

Lots of fun to be had here..but I am stll learning much

I am amazed how when you got to war with ai..they dont play..you better be prepared or else!

Attachment: slingshot01.jpg
This has been downloaded 42 time(s).