18-09-2005 18:24									#451
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Isn't it wiser to do just a quick conversion to ToT and release it as RF Redux v1.0? Improvements can always be added in the next version. Just like the original.

	18-09-2005 19:03									#452
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Isn't it wiser to do just a quick conversion to ToT and release it as RF Redux v1.0? Improvements can always be added in the next version. Just like the original.

I've been saying this all along. I'm hoping to get new graphics from Fairline and a converted ToT version of Red Front and post them soon. Better a bird in the hand ....

	18-09-2005 21:23									#453
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Ditto.

	18-09-2005 22:10									#454
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Agreed.

	18-09-2005 23:57									#455
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OK then. Icons are not done - Curt, did I recall you were interested in doing these?

I have a couple of units to change and I need to tweak the last of the terrain. EA2 takes priority atm.

Harry, did you finish the sounds?

Sarsstock - would you mind sending me the title graphic again please?

Agricola - do you want to have a go at fixing the 'too many units bug, or are you happy that we wait for a future version to do this and other gameplay tweaks?

	19-09-2005 07:10									#456
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I don't think that it is worth doing for a MGE to TOT conversion.

If I understand techumseh's suggestion correctly, the game play will not be changed by the conversion and I can't see why anyone would want to play a straight conversion of RF 1.4 to TOT when they can equally well play the original. Unfortunately, RF 1.4 has major loopholes and there is a thread of mine at Poly from a few years back which explains in detail how to exploit some of them.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=103647

Also, if the eventual redux will have stackable terrain then there will have to be a further reduction in the initial German unit count to compensate for lower casualties on both sides. IMO, stackable terrain is about the only way to make the Stalingrad, Caucasus and Zitadelle operations significant events against a half decent Soviet defence strategy.

I would suggest that right now players might find it a lot more interesting and challenging to try RF 1.5 rather than just playing RF 1.4 as a TOT game. I may sound like an uncouth barbarian in saying this, but to me game play is what makes or breaks a scen . . . . everything else is secondary.

	19-09-2005 07:33									#457
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I'm not suggesting that a more comprehensive update is unneccesary. I am suggesting that we break it down. We've had a couple of false starts now, because of the complexity of the project and the number of people involved.

What I'd like to do is start hosting ToT conversions of some of my favorite scenarios on my site, with graphic upgrades if possible. This should be an advantage to anyone wishing to work on a more comprehensive revision. But I'd prefer to get what we have ready to go up on the site without undue delay.

	19-09-2005 08:37									#458
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For what it's worth, I thought I'd add my two cents... I was actually playing Red Front (both 1.4 and the redone 1.5) a month or so ago. My vote would be for doing this project in stages as some have suggested. Red Front 1.4 is a masterpiece with one single flaw--the too many units bug. The two many units bug makes the game virtually unplayable. IMHO, the greater civ2 community would benefit a lot by a graphical update for TOT which fixes the too many units bug. This project would be the closest to keeping the integrity of Nemo's original idea. I realize there is room for additional improvements, but they could be added later.

Also, I think RF1.5 could be a jumping off point for these additional changes. However, I seriously think RF1.5 compromises Nemo's original idea in many places. I am not diminishing anyone's efforts, but there are several things which just, in my opinion, inappropriately change Nemo's scenario. For instance, replacing soviet fortresses with penal divisions, replacing cossack cavalry with motorcycles, removing supply convoys, making NKVD troops immobile at the beginning, etc etc. All of these changes go beyond "making the scenario more difficult and fixing bugs" and actually try to change Nemo's original idea. Anyways, I know these issues have been discussed thoroughly in the past. Just thought I'd cast my vote for a redone TOT version fixing the too many units bug...

	19-09-2005 14:14									#459
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@techumseh
OK, I'll reduce German unit count by ~250 of the weakest and westernmost units units. To preserve the ghost turn, it'll probably have to be a hexedit of the .scn file. I'll send it to you in a few days.

@Kugelregen
Great that someone else has actually played RF 1.5. Any chance of a post about your experience with the scen beyond what you have already said. How far did the Germans manage to get in '41? Did they mount a significant attack on Stalingrad and the Caucasus? How did your game turn out and so on. This project can use all the player feedback that it can get.

	19-09-2005 21:44									#460
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quote: Originally posted by Kugelregen IMHO, the greater civ2 community would benefit a lot by a graphical update for TOT which fixes the too many units bug. This project would be the closest to keeping the integrity of Nemo's original idea. I realize there is room for additional improvements, but they could be added later.

Pretty much my sentiments too Kugelregen. That still leaves a few things to sort out before RF is ready to go on Tech's site:

- I have 1 unit icon and a number of terrain tweaks to make, which won't get done 'til the El Aurens 2 stuff is completed.

- Sounds by Harry T?

- icons by Curt?

- Title graphic by Sarsstock?

Any news chaps?

@Agricola: thanks for stepping into the FMK breach to sort out the too many units bug. I tweaked my own copy in a pretty slap-dash fashion - I didn't think I needed to remove as many as 250 units though and I lost the ghost turn as you say.

	19-09-2005 21:50									#461
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA I don't think that it is worth doing for a MGE to TOT conversion. If I understand techumseh's suggestion correctly, the game play will not be changed by the conversion and I can't see why anyone would want to play a straight conversion of RF 1.4 to TOT when they can equally well play the original....

I'm pretty superficial and I enjoy playing a game more if it looks better - that was the whole point of this graphical tart-up in the first place, although you have successfully convinced me that there is room for improvement for a future RF release.

You're right of course - gameplay should come first, but there has to be some room for a bit of eye-candy, or we'd all be playing games based on 1's and 0's with no graphics at all....

	19-09-2005 21:52									#462
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quote: Originally posted by fairline - Sounds by Harry T?

I guess I can dig up what I worked on. I don't know what's still out there, but I'll see.

	20-09-2005 00:06									#463
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA To preserve the ghost turn, it'll probably have to be a hexedit of the .scn file. I'll send it to you in a few days.

Why don't you open the .scn file as a savegame? I.e. choose "Load a Saved Game", change the *.sav thingy to *.scn, browse to the RF scenario folder and open it. Then edit as usual and save as a scenario.

I don't know much effect this has though. That is, how many sneaky other changes to the scenario file this results in.

But hex-editing out the few unwanted differences will likely be easier than hex-editing out hundreds of units, especially if you have a hex-editor that can compare 2 files.

I just had a quick test with RF1.4. Loaded it, deleted a bunch of units, saved it again and started the new scenario. The hex-editor did show 31 differences at the start and end of the file (apart from the obvious differences to the map and units section). At least some of those had to do with the deleted units (and changed cursor position). But the scenario loaded fine, without any issues at first glance (like having the cheat menu activated or something).

But then I don't know RF and am no expert in editing "live" files.

And RF1.4 is actually FW, and I guess you have MGE, so saving it as a scenario would create some more differences because of that.

quote: originally posted by AGRICOLA I don't think that it is worth doing for a MGE to TOT conversion. If I understand techumseh's suggestion correctly, the game play will not be changed by the conversion and I can't see why anyone would want to play a straight conversion of RF 1.4 to TOT when they can equally well play the original....

But then any changes to the game play could be done in FW/MGE itself without the need for a conversion.

The first reason for a conversion is making it available to people who don't have FW/MGE or simply prefer ToT.

Apart from that ToT also offers some extras like better graphics and more events etc. Those are the things that can be added after the first conversion.

	20-09-2005 01:43									#464
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quote: Why don't you open the .scn file as a savegame? I.e. choose "Load a Saved Game", change the *.sav thingy to *.scn, browse to the RF scenario folder and open it. Then edit as usual and save as a scenario.

I've already tried to change *.scn to *.sav in the RF folder and can't seem to do it. What's the secret? Use FW, which I don't have? The MGE "Load a Game" command can only open *.sav files.

The following seems to work using the hexeditor for everything except deleting units:
1. Take any .sav file and delete everything, creating X.sav.
2. Append enough bytes to bring X.sav (all 0's) to the same size as .scn file.
3. Copy entire .scn file.
4. Paste into X.sav. X.sav can then be opened with MGE.
6. Copy X.sav and paste (overwrite) back into the original .scn file.
7. If this doesn't work, copy only units section back into .scn.

This problem is also complicated by the fact that the Germans don't have unduly many units at the start (~875) but are rapidly reinforced by events as follows:

If Wehrmacht killed, Germans get StuG IIIC, Pz III, Pz IV and 2 Wehrmacht SG
If Stuka killed, Germans get Stuka and Wehrmacht SG
If Pz IV killed, Germans get Pz IV
If Red Army killed, Germans get Wehrmacht and Wehrmacht SG
If Partisans killed, Germans get Wespe
If Refugees killed, Germans get Slave Labor
If Refugees killed, Soviets get Partisans (this is no big deal: the Partisans are sure to be immediately killed by the Germans who then get a Wespe.)

I am going to try to disband as few as possible of the units whose destruction spawns additional units. Fortunately, both the Soviets and the Germans have enough units far enough from the front so they cannot get into battle before the spawning frenzy ends in December '41. Of course the 6 Swedish AA units are being wiped.

	20-09-2005 02:37									#465
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA I've already tried to change *.scn to *.sav in the RF folder and can't seem to do it.

You mean in Windows or in Civ2? You don't need to be renaming anything anyway...

quote: What's the secret? Use FW, which I don't have? The MGE "Load a Game" command can only open *.sav files.

No. I don't have MGE, but every version I have (everything but MGE) can do it. When you see the open file dialog, the dialog's file name textbox says *.sav right? Even if it doesn't, change it to *.scn and press enter. Presto! Now you're seeing the scenario files. Or just type * instead to see all files. That works in all windows file open dialogs. Now you can see the scenario file, browse to it as usual, select and open.

quote: 1. Take any .sav file and delete everything, creating X.sav. 2. Append enough bytes to bring X.sav (all 0's) to the same size as .scn file. 3. Copy entire .scn file. 4. Paste into X.sav. X.sav can then be opened with MGE.

um... Isn't this a hugely complicated way of simply renaming the .scn file to .sav?

	20-09-2005 09:18									#466
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@Mercator
Thanks for the second, more detailed post. I finally figured out what you meant. The only additional point is that at the end one needs to copy the first ~350 bytes of the original redfront.scn into redfront TOT.scn to get the June '41 ghost turn.

@fairline
I deleted 90 German, 50 Russian, 6 Swedish and 1 US units. After some experimenting, that was as far as I dared to go. Nemo appears to have done a very precise balancing job in the initial number and location of units and the spawning of new units by events.

Reducing the unit count makes the scen play a bit differently. From fast forwarding through a couple of turns, I'd guesstimate that the German advance is very slightly slower than in the original.

By the end of the August '41, eliminating 147 units has less effect than I expected. Comparison with an old save shows that there is a decrease of only 61 units. The comparison is pretty rough because now I did nothing during the two Russian turns whereas in the old game I was using a scorched earth strategy and playing very carefully.

I think that it would be a very good idea if others tested the new version as soon as possible.

The redfront TOT.scn file is attached

Attachment: redfront tot.scn
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	21-09-2005 15:55									#467
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I will get on the Icons ASAP!

	21-09-2005 16:37									#468
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Thanks Curt

@ Agricola - thanks for your edits. I'll have a go at the scenario asap - which won't be for a little while with other commitments. I'll report my findings, but it would be useful if as many other people as possible test Agri's changes and report back. As an incentive, I'll give the graphics files to anyone who promises to play through RF and post their findings on the adjustments made by Agricola.

	22-09-2005 00:01									#469
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I just sent you the title for Red Front Gareth, it should be waiting in your inbox.

I'm glad there's a renewed interest in getting this fantastic project underway once more. Looks like we might just finish this year in Civ II development with a bang!!

	22-09-2005 05:11									#470
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Working on icons and daleks at the same time - Woo yay!



Here are some tech icons for the Red Front Icon file...!

The fully complete thing will be coming soon!

Attachment: tech-icons1.png
This has been downloaded 28 time(s).

	22-09-2005 05:13									#471
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quote: Originally posted by Sarsstock I just sent you the title for Red Front Gareth, it should be waiting in your inbox. I'm glad there's a renewed interest in getting this fantastic project underway once more. Looks like we might just finish this year in Civ II development with a bang!!

Indeed!

This will be an awesome way to see out 2005!

In style!

	22-09-2005 16:28									#472
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Marvellous icons, Curt!

	22-09-2005 16:38									#473
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Catfish is the brains behind 80% of them really - But they look great ingame!