03-11-2004 23:23									#511
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I also think the Jewish vote is woefully misguided by voting 3-1 in favor of Kerry. Jewish interests lie solidly with the Republican Party.

It seems Jews don't agree with you. In fact I'd guess that your average Jew is slightly frightened by the idea of the Christian right wing and their constant attempts to force religion onto people.

	03-11-2004 23:23									#512
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I disagree. These issues most certainly are decided by the poor white trash & Joe 6-pack section of our population. The best thing the dems can do is avoid those issues and instead concentrate on issues which Joe 6-pack won't be frightened by when he hears the sound bite.

Or they can do what Clinton did, and AGGRESIVELY pursue the "conservative" side of some cultural issues. See "sista souljah moment" See "kerry, lack of sista souljah moment" See "Kerry, support from Michael Moore, DU, moveon, et al, Gracious acceptance of "

	03-11-2004 23:25									#513
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This is out of touch and condescending. The Joe 6-packs of the world have no soundbite-induced illusions of the Democratic Party values agenda.

I'll admit it's condescending but it is also very true. Let's face it, our average voter doesn't know very much about the candidates and will probably not be able to tell you where he stands on most issues of importance. They’re just to busy or to lazy to find out so instead they make their decisions based upon sound bites.

Sound bites about gays scare most of the Joe 6 packs of the world and so they bolt to the other guy. Yes, the Dems need to stay away from the hot button issues which scare Joe 6-pack.

	03-11-2004 23:26									#514
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'll admite it's condescending but it is also very true. Let's face it our average voter doesn't know very much about the candidates and will probably not be able to tell you where he stands on most issues of importance. Their just to busy or to lazy to find out so instead they make their decisions based upon sound bites.

So what, Kerry doesn't know where he stands on his issues.

	03-11-2004 23:27									#515
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It seems Jews don't agree with you. In fact I'd guess that your average Jew is slightly frightened by the idea of the Christian right wing and their constant attempts to force religion onto people.

just your average jew, your average jew, with 1.3 kids, a hamster, and a wife whose 60% jewish, 20% episcopalian, and 20% atheist. With a long white beard, deep talmudic knowledge, a PhD in sociology from an ivy league university, a department store in a small midwestern town, and expertise with an Uzi. Uh huh.

we jews are almost as diverse as the joe six packs. Maybe more so.

	03-11-2004 23:27									#516
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LP got 400,000 votes, only nader topped that with 1/2 million.

	03-11-2004 23:28									#517
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quote: I'll admite it's condescending but it is also very true.

I hope all democrats feel this way. It will help build a permanent Republican majority.

	03-11-2004 23:31									#518
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark we jews are almost as diverse as the joe six packs. Maybe more so.

By average I'm talking about the 3 out 4 who voted for Kerry.

	03-11-2004 23:32									#519
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quote: Originally posted by dejon That's the recipe in Canada.

its harder here

1. We dont have a Quebec to make the centrist party seem the necessary party of national survival.
2. We are genuinely more conservative. A lot more Alberta, a lot less Ontario. Oh, and our answer to New Foundland etc has moved on economically, and is no longer aligned with the left-centrists.
3. Superpower responsibilities. If Canada had these, the Liberals would be as much torn to shreds on foreign policy as the Dems are.

	03-11-2004 23:34									#520
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It seems Jews don't agree with you. In fact I'd guess that your average Jew is slightly frightened by the idea of the Christian right wing and their constant attempts to force religion onto people.

Oerdin, the Kerry Democrat party is aligning with Europe on the Middle East. That is what I am talking about.

	03-11-2004 23:36									#521
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin By average I'm talking about the 3 out 4 who voted for Kerry.

they themselves are divided - from residual genooine lefties, to soccer moms scared of the christian right, to folks who think middle east policy is the dominant concern BUT that Bush has screwed it up and Kerry would do better, even in Iraq. Not to mention people in fields tied to the dems, from teachers to tort lawyers.

Just as the bush voters range from Orthodox folks who like Bush on cultural issues, to folks who voted for Bush based on foreign policy, to affluent folks who voted their pocketbooks.


May point is that its just a tad more complex than the christian right.

oh, and i forgot to mention a vague sense that the Neocons "out there" position is in fact a danger to the security of ordinary Jews.

	03-11-2004 23:38									#522
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark they themselves are divided - from residual genooine lefties, to soccer moms scared of the christian right, to folks who think middle east policy is the dominant concern BUT that Bush has screwed it up and Kerry would do better, even in Iraq. Not to mention people in fields tied to the dems, from teachers to tort lawyers. Just as the bush voters range from Orthodox folks who like Bush on cultural issues, to folks who voted for Bush based on foreign policy, to affluent folks who voted their pocketbooks. May point is that its just a tad more complex than the christian right.

LoTM, you really have to admit that the Jews who actually believe that Kerry would do better for Israel than Bush are living in some form of denial.

	03-11-2004 23:38									#523
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Or they can do what Clinton did, and AGGRESIVELY pursue the "conservative" side of some cultural issues. See "sista souljah moment" See "kerry, lack of sista souljah moment" See "Kerry, support from Michael Moore, DU, moveon, et al, Gracious acceptance of "

Yes, this most certainly needs to be done as well but they need to stay in the center like Clinton did and not become an Oral Roberts on social issues. On topics like gay unions I would recommend passing the buck with states like "I think each state should decide upon their own laws" and what not. Then you go find a rap CD that talks about killing cops and you spend several days bashing that in and complaining about how it is the wrong values for America.

Joe 6 pack won't be offended by that and he just might like it.

	03-11-2004 23:45									#524
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Oerdin, on gay marriage, it appears that 80% of Americans are against. What the see from the Democrat leadership is pro despite the deliberate ambiguity of the Kerry position. This "leave it to the states" position is akin to the Democrats "leave it to the states" position on slavery pre-Civil War and to Jim Crow post Civil War. Everyone knows that such a position is actually in favor.

	03-11-2004 23:45									#525
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, the Kerry Democrat party is aligning with Europe on the Middle East. That is what I am talking about.

Seeings how Bush and Kerry agreed on everything concerning Israel I don't see a major difference between the two. The only difference was on Iraq and even there Kerry simply talked about more UN involvement which really wouldn't change to many facts on the ground. It would just be symbolic. I do think Bush will try harder then Kerry to put done the rebellion in Iraq but I honestly don't see a clear cut victory based upon a military solution in Iraq. Our best bet is to pore truck loads of money into the Iraqi Army and expand that to 500k so they can do the fighting for us, but I don't see that happening. A year and a half after the invasion and so far we have about 25k in the new Iraqi Army.


That's just my observations based upon eight months in Iraq.

	03-11-2004 23:49									#526
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I just have enough intelligence to realize that Bush is an incompetent pea brain.

That is why he is the most powerful man in the the world and you are.......almost nothing?

	03-11-2004 23:51									#527
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This "leave it to the states" position is akin to the Democrats "leave it to the states" position on slavery pre-Civil War and to Jim Crow post Civil War. Everyone knows that such a position is actually in favor.

As I recall it was the Democrats who came out against Jim Crow in the 1960's and the south went Republican because the Republicans promised to keep segregation.

Leaving it up to locals means he wouldn't force it on anyone and each state gets to make up their own mind. In a divided country like ours if you try to impose such values then you're going to piss off half of the country so it's better to stay away from that issue.

BTW the 70% figure counts only those states which bothered to vote on the gay unions issue. I believe it doesn't count the other 40. In any event this issue is toxic so wise politicians will leave it alone and harp on other issues like rap music or something.

	03-11-2004 23:52									#528
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola That is why he is the most powerful man in the the world and you are.......almost nothing?

No, it isn't. The reason he is the most powerful man in the world is because academically challenged, ignoramus xenophobes like you admire his sort of qualities.

	03-11-2004 23:53									#529
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Seeings how Bush and Kerry agreed on everything concerning Israel I don't see a major difference between the two. The only difference was on Iraq and even there Kerry simply talked about more UN involvement which really wouldn't change to many facts on the ground. It would just be symbolic. I do think Bush will try harder then Kerry to put done the rebellion in Iraq but I honestly don't see a clear cut victory based upon a military solution in Iraq. Our best bet is to pore truck loads of money into the Iraqi Army and expand that to 500k so they can do the fighting for us, but I don't see that happening. A year and a half after the invasion and so far we have about 25k in the new Iraqi Army.

I thought cause the goal was to have the Iraqi National Guard do much of the security in relatively quiet areas, and keep the army small and elite for higher intensity combat.

	03-11-2004 23:53									#530
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And as the US dollar plumets too, almost instantaenously on the news.... Jesus.

	03-11-2004 23:56									#531
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, on gay marriage, it appears that 80% of Americans are against. What the see from the Democrat leadership is pro despite the deliberate ambiguity of the Kerry position. This "leave it to the states" position is akin to the Democrats "leave it to the states" position on slavery pre-Civil War and to Jim Crow post Civil War. Everyone knows that such a position is actually in favor.

But if you have the stance of allowe demestic partnerships, then most Americans are for that.

"Gay Marriage" evokes a viceral dislike in many Americans, but they'd support something that was just like a marriage with a different name.

Of course, that can't happen in Ohio now. Issue 1 was passed which outlaws anything that is similar to a marriage or grants rights that are similar to those a marriage grants, etc. Most of the voters didn't know that, of course.

America depserately needs a multi-party system.

-Drachasor

	03-11-2004 23:57									#532
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yes, this most certainly needs to be done as well but they need to stay in the center like Clinton did and not become an Oral Roberts on social issues. On topics like gay unions I would recommend passing the buck with states like "I think each state should decide upon their own laws" and what not. Then you go find a rap CD that talks about killing cops and you spend several days bashing that in and complaining about how it is the wrong values for America. Joe 6 pack won't be offended by that and he just might like it.

If Clinton had ONLY done a symbolic attack on junk culture that wouldnt have done the trick. He went farther and put substance into his insistence on discipline, including most notably welfare reform. Earning him the disdain of the New York Times editorial page, Harpers, etc. Kerry wasnt willing to take the chance of a break with such people, or thought he didnt have to.

	03-11-2004 23:57									#533
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'll admit it's condescending but it is also very true. Let's face it, our average voter doesn't know very much about the candidates and will probably not be able to tell you where he stands on most issues of importance. They’re just to busy or to lazy to find out so instead they make their decisions based upon sound bites. Sound bites about gays scare most of the Joe 6 packs of the world and so they bolt to the other guy. Yes, the Dems need to stay away from the hot button issues which scare Joe 6-pack.

No. What the dems, and too many poly posters, need to recognize is that these are not inconsequential issues to the people who believe in them (which includes many if not most moderates).

If I was to say that, so long as americans continue to misunderstand and belittle Islamic beliefs in the world we will face the threat of terrorism, you might agree. The mirror to that is that as long as liberals continue to misunderstand and ignore Christian beliefs in America they will loose.

	03-11-2004 23:57									#534
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I thought cause the goal was to have the Iraqi National Guard do much of the security in relatively quiet areas, and keep the army small and elite for higher intensity combat.

You are forgetting the "don't talk about how 5% of the ING is probably infiltrated by insurgents" policy.

-Drachasor

	04-11-2004 00:01									#535
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This country is tearing itself apart because people in the bible belt think God, Gays, and Guns(tm) are more important than putting food on the table. Us northerners really need to break away from the Neandertals in Dixie.

	04-11-2004 00:01									#536
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Haha, they're still going to count all the rest of the votes. Its still possible...slightly.

	04-11-2004 00:03									#537
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, on gay marriage, it appears that 80% of Americans are against. What the see from the Democrat leadership is pro despite the deliberate ambiguity of the Kerry position. This "leave it to the states" position is akin to the Democrats "leave it to the states" position on slavery pre-Civil War and to Jim Crow post Civil War. Everyone knows that such a position is actually in favor.

oh please... stop pulling number out of your ass. Just because some cracker ass states decided to vote on it, doesn't mean America is against it. I saw CNN's polling last night, over a majority of the people polled either approved of gay marriage or of civil unions. Something like 37% (IIRC) were for no recognition of gay unions period.

	04-11-2004 00:05									#538
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I thought cause the goal was to have the Iraqi National Guard do much of the security in relatively quiet areas, and keep the army small and elite for higher intensity combat.

The problem is the national guard is really not reliable and they get paid so little that they are filled with corrupt individuals who often rob citizens at check points. The ING also frequently sell information about upcoming missions to the rebels. I can't say I blame them as they're paid nothing, poorly trained, and doing a dangerous job.

The Iraqi Army is supposed to do the dangerous jobs and they are more reliable then the ING plus they are better trained and better paid. The problem is at 25k they aren't big enough to seriously releave any US or UK forces and the ING can't be counted on to even do peace keeping in safe areas. If we want to get serious about Iraqis taking charge of their own security then they're going to need a much, much larger professional standing Army and they're going to need tanks, APCs, and the works. You can't expect them to go into Fallujah or Ramadi with anything less.

	04-11-2004 00:05									#539
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quote: Originally posted by Odin This country is tearing itself apart because people in the bible belt think God, Gays, and Guns(tm) are more important than putting food on the table. Us northerners really need to break away from the Neandertals in Dixie.

Personally, I think the US needs to become more city-state oriented. I say we abolish states altogether and make the major urban centers capitals of provinces.

We need to stop letting the crackers run this country. I think this goes back to the Civil War. We shouldn't let the South and the rest of the red states dictate American policy. That's why things are so ****ed up.

	04-11-2004 00:06									#540
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn And as the US dollar plumets too, almost instantaenously on the news.... Jesus.

That has to do with the budget deficit. With one party in control everyone knows the budget is going to blow up.