03-11-2004 22:41									#481
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Ned, they never going to understand. Haven't you given up on them yet?

	03-11-2004 22:41									#482
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quote: Originally posted by dejon The Dems do definitely need someone with much more charisma than Kerry.

Kerry was very "presidential." Very.

The Dems did not lose because they lost the "personality" contest.

	03-11-2004 22:44									#483
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Religion and morals are not interchangable. Islam is a good example of that. I am a firm believer in morals and the traditional values of our country, and while they may have been influenced by Christianity, they are by no means going to disappear if secularism takes greater hold. I for one have no problem with Bush's faith whatsoever and I in fact feel more confident in our security knowing someone with strong morals is in offirce.

Interchangable, no. But here's the rub - while a strongly moral person may not necessarily be religious, a religious person will almost always have traditional morals. (Yes, there are always exceptions.)

Faiths often mean people are slow to change their views and values to reflect the dynamic societies we have today.

	03-11-2004 22:44									#484
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Correction, he is a Dixiecrat, or in English, actually a Republican.

Believe it or not the full political spectum is represented in both parties.

	03-11-2004 22:44									#485
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quote: It still hasn't sunk in that only appealing to the Liberal vote is a bad strategy. They seriously think the moderates and conservatives are a minority they have out numbered.

Actually independants voted more for Kerry. The Republicans won by only appealing to conservatives, who came out much more in force than liberal did for the Democrats.

	03-11-2004 22:46									#486
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue I am always quite surprised by the way the country splits. The red states stay red, the blue states stay blue with only 7-8 states switching sides. Would i be correct in assuming that a lot of the blue states (New England, California, New York) pay more money into the federal kitty than they get out of it? And that a significant number of the red states take more out than they put in? Maybe they should start thinking about secession...

Always? Look at the map of the '76 election. The South and Ohio went to the Dems.

	03-11-2004 22:47									#487
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The number of applications to the Socialist Party has jumped in the last 24 hours. As I said before, this election was a win-win situation for us. Either we get rid of Bush or Bush makes a lot more socialists.

Better move to the North, Che. Bob Bectel, Democrat leader, has called for the South to secede.

	03-11-2004 22:48									#488
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kerry was very "presidential." Very. The Dems did not lose because they lost the "personality" contest.

From the outsider's perspective, I have to respectfully disagree.

Kerry did not exude charm and win votes with prose.

He Bush-bashed the whole way without saying much about what he would do differently.

Kerry may have won the "smarts" contest (not real hard there), but not the "personality" contest.

	03-11-2004 22:49									#489
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually independants voted more for Kerry. The Republicans won by only appealing to conservatives, who came out much more in force than liberal did for the Democrats.

Yes... the conservatives did come out in force... but if "only" conservatives voted for Bush, he wouldn't have won. He got enough independants to win the election, because the conservatives by themselves aren't enough to win a national election.

	03-11-2004 22:51									#490
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Get rid of the Southern, moderate Democrats? (Clintonians) I said this earlier, Sava. It tells you a lot about the issues if the people vote for a moron over an obviously talented challenger.

I agree. Sava, you are way off base the Dems need to put the Clintonians (southern centerists) in charge and ditch the current party leadership which are almost all old fashioned 60's liberals. Centerism will win while liberalism is a sure fire loser.

	03-11-2004 22:52									#491
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From an outsider's point of view, how can average working class American who has received nothing from this administration, and have net job losses be so worried about moral values when the two candidates are basically the same on the gay marriage issue?

	03-11-2004 22:53									#492
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I agree. Sava, you are way off base the Dems need to put the Clintonians (southern centerists) in charge and ditch the current party leadership which are almost all old fashioned 60's liberals. Centerism will win while liberalism is a sure fire loser.

That's the recipe in Canada.

	03-11-2004 22:54									#493
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quote: From an outsider's point of view, how can average working class American who has received nothing from this administration, and have net job losses be so worried about moral values when the two candidates are basically the same on the gay marriage issue?

I don't think they viewed Kerry as sincere on the issue. His state was the only state to legalize it, after all. Plus the broader values theme of abortion and fetal stem cell research. Kerry spent considerable time early on in West Virginia, for instance. But he eventually threw his hands up at the coal miners and steel workers who wanted to talk values.

	03-11-2004 22:54									#494
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius From an outsider's point of view, how can average working class American who has received nothing from this administration, and have net job losses be so worried about moral values when the two candidates are basically the same on the gay marriage issue?

Because one of the candidates tells them they aren't the same on the issue - you know - the one they also believe about WMD.

	03-11-2004 22:55									#495
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That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes, an aeroplane,
Lenny Bruce is not afraid
Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn - world
Serves its own needs, dont misserve your own needs. Feed
It off an aux speak, grunt, no, strength,turn, ladder
Start to clatter with fear fight down height. Wire
In a fire, representing seven games, in a government
For hire and a combat site. Left of west and coming in
A hurry with the furies breathing down your neck. Team
By team reporters baffled, trumped, tethered cropped
Look at that low playing! Fine, then. Uh oh,
Overflow, population, common food, but it'll do. Save
Yourself, serve yourself. World serves its own needs,
Listen to your heart bleed dummy with the rapture and
The revered and the right, right. You vitriolic,
Patriotic, slam, fight, bright light, feeling pretty
Psyched
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine
Six o'clock - TV hour. Don't get caught in foreign
Towers. Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself
Churn. Locking in, uniforming,and book burning, blood
Letting. Every motive escalate. Automotive incinerate
Light a candle, light a motive. Step down, step down
Watch your heel crush, crushed, uh-oh, this means no
Fear cavalier. Renegade steer clear! A tournament,
a Tournament, a tournament of lies. Offer me solutions,
Offer me alternatives and I decline
(chorus)
It's the end of the world as we know it (it's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it (it's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine (it's time I had some
time alone)
I feel fine
(repeat chorus)
The other night I dreamt of knives, continental
Drift divide. Mountains sit in a line, Leonard
Bernstein. Leonid Brezhnev, Lenny Bruce and Lester
Bangs. Birthday party, cheesecake, jelly bean, boom! You
Symbiotic, patriotic, slam book neck, right? Right
(repeat chorus)
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine (it's time I had some
time alone)
(repeat chorus 2x)
Fine
It's the end of the world as we know it (it's time I had some time alone)

	03-11-2004 22:55									#496
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quote: I agree. Sava, you are way off base the Dems need to put the Clintonians (southern centerists) in charge and ditch the current party leadership which are almost all old fashioned 60's liberals. Centerism will win while liberalism is a sure fire loser.

MODERATES. Moderates will win while liberalism is a sure fire loser.

I'm not going to let the conservative and rightist language machine turn the term "Moderate" into a curse like they did "Liberal".

	03-11-2004 23:00									#497
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quote: MODERATES. Moderates will win while liberalism is a sure fire loser. I'm not going to let the conservative and rightist language machine turn the term "Moderate" into a curse like they did "Liberal".

I don't think they can, you have to take into account the root word the terms were derived from.

Conservative is derived from "common sense."

Moderate is derived from "middle."

Liberal is derived from "lobotomy."

	03-11-2004 23:00									#498
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Ned, they never going to understand. Haven't you given up on them yet?

Ghenghis, so long as they continue to believe that nominating a charming, intelligent, smooth and very tall man matters more than the fact that he was a liberal. The long knives will now come out. Kerry will be carved up be fed to the lions.

Watch.

	03-11-2004 23:01									#499
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quote: Originally posted by dejon From the outsider's perspective, I have to respectfully disagree. Kerry did not exude charm and win votes with prose. He Bush-bashed the whole way without saying much about what he would do differently. Kerry may have won the "smarts" contest (not real hard there), but not the "personality" contest.

The long knives are out, just like I predicted.

	03-11-2004 23:02									#500
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Don't forget the hair, he had a heck of a lot of hair going in. That's it. He shouldn't have cut his hair. OMG, they lost cause of the hair!

	03-11-2004 23:10									#501
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quote: I don't think they can, you have to take into account the root word the terms were derived from. Conservative is derived from "common sense." Moderate is derived from "middle." Liberal is derived from "lobotomy."

	03-11-2004 23:10									#502
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius From an outsider's point of view, how can average working class American who has received nothing from this administration, and have net job losses be so worried about moral values when the two candidates are basically the same on the gay marriage issue?

Kalius, basically the same?

No one believes THAT for a second.

	03-11-2004 23:10									#503
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Let me understand, Oerdin. Radical leftwinger activists the Democrats have traditionally nominated do NOT count as partisan nominations? Daschle and his Senate co-conspirators have hamstrung judicial appointments for four years. Who is partisan? Who? My God, not even the people of Wyoming could be mislead by the leftist propaganda anymore and threw that partisan hack out of office.

I didn't see Clinton nominate to many extremists; nearly all of his nominations were centrists where as nearly all of Bush's have been partisan extremists. Regarding Daschle, Daschle is from South Dakota not Wyoming and I've never liked him because he's not a Clintonian centrist. The old guard 1960's liberal like Daschle need to go so the centrists can take over the party.

Lastly, about filibusters. The Republican minority in Congress during the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's spent most of their time filibustering just about every Democratic bill which came along. So now you are claiming it was ok for Republicans to filibuster but it isn't ok for Democrats to filibuster? The truth is that other then rolling over to the majority filibustering is just about the only thing the minority can do. If the majority doesn't want to negotiate and keeps sending up partisan bills or nominations then the only thing the minority party can do is filibuster until the majority party strikes a more bipartisan position.

	03-11-2004 23:16									#504
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Jimmy, that tells you a lot about the issues, does it not? The Dems are way out there on social issues compared to the bulk of the American electorate.

Other then gay unions what was Kerry so far out in left field on? I'm just not seeing your claim that he's way out of sink.

	03-11-2004 23:17									#505
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ready for an application?

To the CPA or the Democrats?

	03-11-2004 23:20									#506
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius From an outsider's point of view, how can average working class American who has received nothing from this administration, and have net job losses be so worried about moral values when the two candidates are basically the same on the gay marriage issue?

Jobs losses? Yes. Unemployment rate at 5.9%, same as when Clinton was re-elected. I guess those folks who lost jobs found employment. I'm an average working American and have received $1,400 dollars in tax refunds from this President and a lower tax bracket (tax breaks didn't go strictly to the upperclass).

I've got more discretionary funds to allocate toward my family (wife and 2 kids).

So, ....

	03-11-2004 23:20									#507
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The people of 11 states (including Washington state) voted overwhelmingly last night to define marriage as only that between a man and woman. So long as a certain group of people continue to see these types of issues as only important to 'poor white trash' the dems will not win.

I disagree. These issues most certainly are decided by the poor white trash & Joe 6-pack section of our population. The best thing the dems can do is avoid those issues and instead concentrate on issues which Joe 6-pack won't be frightened by when he hears the sound bite.

	03-11-2004 23:21									#508
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius From an outsider's point of view, how can average working class American who has received nothing from this administration, and have net job losses be so worried about moral values when the two candidates are basically the same on the gay marriage issue?

1. No working class American experiences "net job losses" Hes either employed or he isnt. If hes employed, and doing well, and feels reasonably secure the absence of jobs in other trades or other regions is not particularly significant.

	03-11-2004 23:21									#509
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Oerdin, once upon a time "filibuster" actually held up Senate business and required the filibuster to be present on the Senate floor for a long as they could physically hold out. I don't recall when the custom arose to allow defacto filibusters by consent. But I also do not recall Republicans filibustering against virtually every Catholic judicial appointee as the Democrats are doing now.

When I was a kid in Catholic school, I was one of a handful of Republican kids. I remember the '60 election. Out of 800 kids voting in our mock election, Kennedy got like 796.

Today, I am willing to bet that Catholics are voting Republican. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the personality of the president.

	03-11-2004 23:22									#510
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quote: I disagree. These issues most certainly are decided by the poor white trash & Joe 6-pack section of our population. The best thing the dems can do is avoid those issues and instead concentrate on issues which Joe 6-pack won't be frightened by when he hears the sound bite.

This is out of touch and condescending. The Joe 6-packs of the world have no soundbite-induced illusions of the Democratic Party values agenda. They seem pretty well informed on values issues to me.