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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
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Sure, enjoy it for a year or two, and then move out as fast as you can. Otherwise youll have to pay direly for all those 16-18 year old single mothers who will never get an education wich also probably will happen for their children, but then again - it can be solved by hiring more police to shoot them down when they have joined some crimnal organisation.
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So you believe that only the unwashed masses will have children, and that all these children will grow up to become criminals?
That's a rather aristocratic, and conservative perspective.
Why not shoot all the infants too?
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Yup, just look at the advertisements from the abortion industry where they try to persuade women to get pregnant so the can get an abortion at their local clinic.
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Planned Parenthood advertises everywhere. In the US they are the largest abortion provider. Abortion is an industry in the US, regardless of what you believe, they do try to persuade pregnant women to have abortion, through a variety of means. Their primary method is to offer counselling with the nod and wink that we also refer for abortions. Call it a loss leader if you will, like gas at a gas station.
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And no, legal abortion don't hurt the country, on the contrary it probably makes it better. If you think that more people are better, then just take a look at china or india - they would be much better off if their population was less.
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So why don't you advocate nuking India and China to speed up their depopulation, if you believe that fewer people is always beneficial?
No state can prosper without people.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
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No, abortion clinics doesn't profit from killing children, the are earning their money from removing fetuses,
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'Removing fetuses'?
That's like saying one secures a target.
If all you are doing is 'removing' the fetus, why do the abortionists rip the child to shreds?
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and no, your long term economic prosperity aren't reduced, it's quite opposite, it's not the number that make prosperity, it's quality.
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And you can sort the good from the bad?
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What decrease ? You would be right if nothing new was invented, but since that is not true, then there are no problem.
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No Western nation has ever experienced a decline in population, except through war. This is an unprecedented phenomenon, for these nations to face a sustained decrease in population.
So the question remains, whether these nations can sustain an increase in prosperity with less people who will be willing to buy goods.
Look at Russia. Their population implodes, and their state is gradually collapsing. According to your theories, the more people they lose, the better off they will be. How do you explain the plight of Russia? Why are they not improving for killing off their weak and burdensome parasites?
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Yoyu are right, human life, but not human conciousness, and it's that that counts.
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Okay. So when does a child attain human consciousness?
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
use the same deffinition as when life ends
the existence of brainwaves
very simple and would place the limit roughly at the end of the first trimester, which I am confortable
Jon Miller |
Good idea Jon
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
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quote:
What is the anti-abortion stand anyway on few issues like when the life of the mother is in danger, and what about in case of rape? And where does the timelimit go when they see the abortion should not be allowed anymore, is it 1 day, 2 weeks, what? Do they accept the morning after pills?
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The most consistent position places personhood at conception. So the morning after pills are just another abortifacient, that procures an early abortion.
Secondly, for the case of rape, it works like this. The child is an innocent bystander. The child is not responsible for the actions of the father, and the rape of the mother. So why should the child pay with his life?
Finally, as for the life of the mother, in most cases, one can save both the mother and the child since most of the complications arise after viability.
There is one common complication that arises earlier in the term, called an ectopic pregnancy, where the child forms in the fallopian tubes of the mother. If the child is allowed to grow here, the tubes will burst and both the child and mother die. What they do in this situation, is to cut a section of the fallopian tubes so that the child can be safely removed from the mother.
The intent in this case, rather than to kill a child, is to save the life of the mother. It is unfortunate at this point in time, that there is no way to preserve the life of the child.
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I mean, religionistas should join, it's not like obesity was ever a good thing in the bible.
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A little fasting never hurt anyone.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
I came home 30 minutes ago after a threesome and a lot of weed |
Is that supposed to earn you some cool points or something?
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
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quote:
Humanity is a state of being. It's your memories and desires and thoughts and emotions all wrapped up.
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What makes you St. Leo? Do you not continue to accumulate desires and thought and emotions, and do these not vary over time? Do you stop being St. Leo when you are angry, or do you become St. Leo when you are happy?
If we base personhood upon memories and desires, how do you retain personal identity over time?
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Seeing your mother's smile and smiling back makes you human.
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Say I am blind. Am I not just as much of a person, as those who can see?
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Learning to use the toilet makes you human.
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What if where I live, there is no proper sanitation. Am I not a person just as much as those who do have toilets?
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Saying your first word or making your first ASL sign makes you human.
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What if I am mute, and no one has thought to teach me sign? Am I not still a person, just as much as those who can speak 5 languages fluently?
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Kissing a boy or a girl makes you human.
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What if I am a leper? Am I not as much of a person, as those who are attractive?
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Licking frogs with friends and laughing about it afterwards makes you human.
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What if I am a sick child, cooped up in a hospital, to frail to go outside? Am I not as much of a person, as the hale and hearty?
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Going to a funeral makes you human.
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What if I die first, and do not get that privilege?
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Getting your first paycheque or panhandling enough for your first cup of coffee makes you human.
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What if I am too ill to do either? Am I not as much of a person, as one man with millions of dollars?
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Defending your thesis and receiving a PhD makes you human.
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What if there is no such education where I live? Am I not as much of a person, as the Fellow of Cambridge?
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It is because of those things that the braindead are no longer human. It is because of those things that the unborn are not human.
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Why do you deny these children these privileges of life? Why do you cut them off before they bloom?
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Secondly, for the case of rape, it works like this. The child is an innocent bystander. The child is not responsible for the actions of the father, and the rape of the mother. So why should the child pay with his life?
Finally, as for the life of the mother, in most cases, one can save both the mother and the child since most of the complications arise after viability. |
Largely true, though there are some complications which may crop up so early that continuing the pregnancy to the point of viability sometimes isn't feasible. Certain valvular diseases make it difficult for the maternal heart to cope with the extra circulatory demands of pregnancy. Sometimes the mother's heart will start to decompensate at or before the 20th week. In such instances the infant has zero chances of surviving anyway. Terminating such a pregnancy is a case of saving the mother while recognizing the inevitable outcome of the fetus. quote:
There is one common complication that arises earlier in the term, called an ectopic pregnancy, where the child forms in the fallopian tubes of the mother. If the child is allowed to grow here, the tubes will burst and both the child and mother die. What they do in this situation, is to cut a section of the fallopian tubes so that the child can be safely removed from the mother.
The intent in this case, rather than to kill a child, is to save the life of the mother. It is unfortunate at this point in time, that there is no way to preserve the life of the child.
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Same situation as the case above.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
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quote:
When you're 50, unemployed and only suited for manual labor your job prospects aren't very good, and a 50 year old having worked hard for 30 years often can't physically keep up with younger workers.
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I have a friend's father who is in that boat. He's just turned 50, got divorced by his wife, and they split the kids, with him getting the two oldest, and his wife getting the two youngest.
He lost his job on top of everything, had to go back to work as a sheet metal labourer, a job that he hadn't done since he was young because of his back problems.
Needless to say, that didn't work out, but he's doing better now. Found a job as a salesman, and my friend, his oldest son, is doing really well.
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Sorry about the "pathetic" remark.
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Don't worry about that. I've heard worse here. 
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I'm really fed up with it all.
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I don't blame you for that. Keep up the good work.  I'm sure your patients appreciate what you do even if they don't say so.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Largely true, though there are some complications which may crop up so early that continuing the pregnancy to the point of viability sometimes isn't feasible. Certain valvular diseases make it difficult for the maternal heart to cope with the extra circulatory demands of pregnancy. Sometimes the mother's heart will start to decompensate at or before the 20th week. In such instances the infant has zero chances of surviving anyway. Terminating such a pregnancy is a case of saving the mother while recognizing the inevitable outcome of the fetus. |
Is there much debate on abortion based on that rationale? If abortion is necessary to save the mother's life, and if there is no way to otherwise save the mother while keeping the fetus alive, then its hard to credibly agrue against that abortion.
I have problems with abortions on a whim, with no other justification than "I don't want to carry this child to term." I don't think that conception should be the absolute measuring point for the beginning of human life; its not unusual for fertilized eggs to naturally abort themselves. For the first few weeks, its impossible to tell if the egg will develop into a fetus. I think that its hard to make an argument that your "murdering" something that hasn't developed into anything yet. However, I think that after the fertilized egg has definately developed into a proto-human, with a developing brain/nervous system, then its too late to abort that fetus.
I support the morning after pill because:
-it comes into play during the earliest stages of uncertainty, when its unclear if the fertilized egg will develop at all
-it gives women who have been raped/ otherwise victimized to take a precaution against an unwanted pregnancy, so that they wouldn't need to get an abortion later in the pregnancy (if she is even pregnant when she first takes the pill)
Women who know that they've had sex and know that they don't want to be pregnant should be obliged to take the morning after pill. If they wait 4 months before they decide that they don't want it, its too late. The fetus has developed into enough of a person that it would be murder to abort it.
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Jon Miller
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whatever you say to proabortion fundies, they will ignore it based on their pseudoscience BS
ignoring real sceintific issues such as the existence of brainwaves
Jon Miller
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
So just admit you value your own lives over someone you don't know, and are killing it out of convieniance. You position that "It's just a fetus" is based solely on your greed and selfishness. Like I said, revoking humanity form people for selfish gain is nothing new, and if your okay with that then fight for it all you want. But right now all of you are deluding yourself because you know if you were forced to integrate the reality of what your doing into you liberal ideology you would probobly have to commit suicide. |
It is not out of greed that I consider embrioes (remember, I only support abortion on-demand up to the 3rd to 4th month, like most Europeans) non-human. It's because of what an emryo is: a thoughtless and feelingless piece of tissue, that is better terminated before it can experience a sucky life. It has the potential of being human. Just like in the future with the progresses of cloning, a few cells of your skin will have the potential of being a human.
Unlike you, I don't give the attributes of a thinking human to that piece of tissue, I don't antropomorphize it. And unlike you, I don't intend to force my morality on other people.
As for your comment about suicide: I have already been confronted to abortion in my life. I have already been confronted with the termination of an embryo. And the only reason why it was a big deal to me, is because of the angst (and the general unhealthiness of any abortion) suffered by the mother.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
It doesn't change the fact that your opinion of 3-4 months is arbitrary. |
Yes, I never claimed the opposite. It is the very reason why I avoid the "abortion" threads like the plague as soon as they descend into the hell of defining when offspring becomes human.
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That and the primary motivation for the action is your self intrest. |
No. My priorities for abortion are:
1. The current and future life of the mother
2. The future life of the kid
3. The current and future life of other relatives (father, siblings etc.)
Unwanted children will often suffer from a really bad childhood, for a variety of reasons. Sure, some unwanted children will grow up in a loving environment that can afford its presence. But such is far, very far from the majority.
As a male, I consider own my current and future well-being to be less important than the child-in-progress'. If I expect the mother and I can provide a good future to the kid, if I expect I'll be able to raise this kid as I imagine I want to, then I wouldn't support abortion. If the mother doesn't feel up to the task, then she'll decide.
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The fact that you don't even make it a set limit is disturbing. Are you saying it is possible it could be "human" in the third of the fourth month? So you are giving yourself a 50/50 chance of murdering a child and are okay with that? |
I follow the European laws, which have an arbitrary set limit. In France, the set limit is 3 monthes. In other European countries, it's 4. I don't support one version over another, both are arbitrary set limits with which I agree. Hence the "3-4".
Besides, should my gf descoverbecome pregnant, she'd have an abortion as soon as possible. To avoid the risk as much as possible, to have the embryo develop an ability to suffer.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:19
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Do I honestly have to point out the groups of people that follow that logic, becuase I would rather not associate you with them, but if your hell bent on doing it yourself...
And believes is the point because all his rational for his position is just as arbitrary as any religionist. I don't find how I can insult him by binding his belief to the motivation he himself gave for believing that.
Great new target for mass murder though, blacks and jews were to hard because they fight back, definetly won't have any of those problems with this lot |
I think anyone who is serious about debating abortion has to accept that no one has a definative answer as to when a fetus becomes a person. Some go with conception, and I'm sure not all of those are religious people - heck, that has the advantage of a simple starting point. The pro-choice people typically have some sort of arbitrary point as well. I'm sure there are studies about when the brain activity kicks in or something, but at the end of the day, there isn't a rock solid answer.
I don't know exactly where to draw the line, but I do feel (yes, feel, as in believe) that conception is too early. Thus I have zero objection to things like the morning after pill. So when, exactly, do I start having a problem with terminating a pregnacy? I'm not really sure.
Given that, I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of legislating away someone else's right to decide the answer to that question for themselves. Thus, I remain pro-choice. When in doubt, I err on the side of "leave the government out of it."
That's MY position on the matter, which may be (and likely is) somewhat different from Spiffor's.
-Arrian
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
1.) At the expence of the child, Selfish.
3.) If this is valid reason, I guess I off some homeless folks on the way home. Maybe they have a wonderful life after childhood? This is a rationalization to justify Selfish #1 and Selfish#3.
3.) Selfish, Selfish, and more Selfish |
If you do not accept that the embryo has the rights of an infant or other human with a functioning brain in the first 3 months, then I do not see how any of this is a bad kind of selfishness.
If you got to a pound and see a dog there, should you have to adopt it because it is selfish not to? Should everyone have to adopt orphans? Thinking about yourself is not always bad.
Anyhow, it isn't like you have presented any good arguements to consider the early embryo as a person, and hence your view of it as "murder" is wholly arbitrary. IMHO, personhood is more than having some cells and human dna.
-Drachasor
Edit: oops, left out a negation, dangit!
Last edited by Drachasor on 11-11-2004 at 01:22
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:19
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quote:
I don't know exactly where to draw the line, but I do feel (yes, feel, as in believe) that conception is too early. Thus I have zero objection to things like the morning after pill. So when, exactly, do I start having a problem with terminating a pregnacy? I'm not really sure. |
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Anyhow, it is like you have presented any good arguements to consider the early embryo as a person, and hence your view of it as "murder" is wholly arbitrary. IMHO, personhood is more than having some cells and human dna. |
I understand my line is completely arbitrary, but my position has the bonus of having no chance of murdering innocent children. If we are headed in the direction of giving murderers on death row this much benefit of the doubt, then the unborn should most definetly get it.
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If you got to a pound and see a dog there, should you have to adopt it because it is selfish not to? Should everyone have to adopt orphans? Thinking about yourself is not always bad. |
I am pretty sure most agree dogs are not humans. However if you saw and abandoned baby in an alley somewhere, then yes, you could at least save its life.
And it isn't like I am even advocating that you keep the child, give it up for adoption. And boo hoo about how horrible it is to do so, but it is better than a death sentance. We don't have gas chambers and crematoriums in the orphanages do we?
Abortion, plain and simple, is about the convienance of the born.
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10-11-2004 07:03
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