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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'd go move there, to work, and pay my dues to that state.
Sure some people would move away, but others would move in.
I mean, not having to pay money to support abortion? Heaven.  |
Sure, enjoy it for a year or two, and then move out as fast as you can. Otherwise youll have to pay direly for all those 16-18 year old single mothers who will never get an education wich also probably will happen for their children, but then again - it can be solved by hiring more police to shoot them down when they have joined some crimnal organisation.
quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
What has changed? People now see what the abortion industry has become, and how legal abortion has hurt the country.
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Yup, just look at the advertisements from the abortion industry where they try to persuade women to get pregnant so the can get an abortion at their local clinic.
And no, legal abortion don't hurt the country, on the contrary it probably makes it better. If you think that more people are better, then just take a look at china or india - they would be much better off if their population was less.
quote:
Originally posted by imacowmoo 3-:-o
They allowed themselves to get stuck in the first place. There are so many forms of birth control out there.
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You forget the fact that the same evil forces that want to ban abortion has contraceptives as their second target. At the moment they prefer that people are killed by AIDS etc instead of promoting use of condoms.
quote:
Originally posted by imacowmoo 3-:-o
Wait.....what about the child?? You think the woman should have the RIGHT to kill an innoncent unborn child because her emotions towards the end of her pregnancy tell her to get rid of it? |
If i'm not wrong, then most countries has a 12 week limit, so you can't get a abortion at the end of a pregnancy.
quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Does all industry necessarily result in economic growth? The abortion industry profits from killing children. The accompanying loss of these children is dragging down your birth rate, and as a consequence, your long-term economic prosperity. |
No, abortion clinics doesn't profit from killing children, the are earning their money from removing fetuses, and no, your long term economic prosperity aren't reduced, it's quite opposite, it's not the number that make prosperity, it's quality.
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How does free enterprise work, with a constant decrease in demand?
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What decrease ? You would be right if nothing new was invented, but since that is not true, then there are no problem.
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Science does say that human life begins at conception. So no dice there.
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Yoyu are right, human life, but not human conciousness, and it's that that counts.
quote:
Originally posted by imacowmoo 3-:-o
Im sure it feels good for the 8 month child who has a steel rod jammed in its skull and brains sucked out. |
What country are you referring to that allows abortion in the eight month ? If you can find one, then i will agree that it's wrong, and it should be changed to 8-12 weeks as a limit.
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
embryos are conscious!!
What? do you think they are in a coma? |
No they aren't. It's quite reasonable to assume that there has to be a certain brain capacity before an embryo get consious.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat
What country are you referring to that allows abortion in the eight month ? If you can find one, then i will agree that it's wrong, and it should be changed to 8-12 weeks as a limit.
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The United States. The original Roe v Wade permitted abortions through the second semester and was hazy about abortions during the third term. Subsequently a number of states permitted abortion through the third trimester and suits were filed to force those states which limited abortion to the first and second trimesters. After a district federal court ruled that a state could not forbid late term abortions an appeal to the Supreme Court decided that no state could forbid abortion before the 26th week. The question of abortion after the 26th week was left to individual states. I believe that 8 of them permit voluntary late term abortions.
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BlackCat
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Thanxs. I usually don't think i know everything and are pleased to learn new.
I can't agree with that - it's too late - i have no problem with abortion in the first 8-12 weeks - that should bee enogh time to consider if you want the baby or not, but after that then it's wrong except in when dire medical reasons are at stake.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by muxec
Is abortion ban the only way to make people use condoms?
Stop AIDS!!! |
You got it wrong, abortion ban isn't a tool to get people to use condoms - next step is to ban condoms !!!
The antiabortionists want people to abandon sex in general and use no-sex-before-marriage as contraceptive wich is totally ridiculous.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat
Thanxs. I usually don't think i know everything and are pleased to learn new.
I can't agree with that - it's too late - i have no problem with abortion in the first 8-12 weeks - that should bee enogh time to consider if you want the baby or not, but after that then it's wrong except in when dire medical reasons are at stake. |
It's not uncommon for a girl to not know that she's pregnant until after the 8th week. Sometimes there is a little vaginal bleeding 2 weeks after conception, which would be the appropriate time for menestruation, so a woman may think that she's having a menestrual period.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
It's not uncommon for a girl to not know that she's pregnant until after the 8th week. Sometimes there is a little vaginal bleeding 2 weeks after conception, which would be the appropriate time for menestruation, so a woman may think that she's having a menestrual period. |
I have never thougth life was simple - my sister thought she just was fat (and she was) but in the end she was more than that - she was pregnant. Anyhow, that doesn't change anyting - you have two to three months to find out if you are pregnant or not and most women/girls have a good idea about if there are a risk of beeing pregnant or not.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by muxec
If Mr. Clinton and Monica... OK, it's irrelevant...
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Since Bill and Monica to my knowledge performed safe sex (i remember something about a cigar, but i'm certain others can be more precise), then you are right - they don't have a claim in this thread (then why include them ? are you a republican ?).
quote:
It's better to kill one before he is born instead of enforcing him to live with mom who does not want him?
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This doesn't make sense - explain.
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Imagine that 14 year-old girl is pregant. Do you really want her not-born-yet child to grow up with her? |
Shure - why not ? That is if she want it. if she don't then no.
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:19
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Er, to get back on topic, Spiffor, I wasn't suggesting that women revert to the role of permanent housewife. Even from a totally selfish perspective I wouldn't want that; if you want a docile and stupid animal you should get a cow, not a woman.
But a fully enfranchised group still has to accept some unpleasant truths. To take one's place in society one has to realize that life is quite often unfair, and sometimes tolerate a great personal wrong for the sake of greater justice. We all do it on some level-when a guy drives on the shoulder of the road to get ahead of you, he's breaking the law, but if there are no police around he has to be tolerated, because it would not be just to take the law into your own hands. Yes, that's an awkward example, and I know it's easy for me to say seeing as I won't have to carry a kid, but this is all off the top of my head in early morning, so cut me some slack.
To put it another way, if a guy impregnates a woman by accident and she decides to have/keep the kid, he can be forced to support the child even though he did not have any "choice" in the affair. It's not the same as having to carry and give birth to the child, but isn't that a case where personal concerns are overridden for the sake of the child?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:19
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Patrokolos, fair enough.. well, about pro-lifer, I still think it's a bit ironic they don't put much of a fight against DP comparing the fight against abortion. Not necessarily all, but majority for sure.
What is the anti-abortion stand anyway on few issues like when the life of the mother is in danger, and what about in case of rape? And where does the timelimit go when they see the abortion should not be allowed anymore, is it 1 day, 2 weeks, what? Do they accept the morning after pills?
I find it also ironic that the sides are so hardcore, both sides. Calling people murderers, that's kind of taking it to the other side. But then again, I'm even more hardcore. I think parents who feed their kids with that **** they do and make them fat and give them diabetes etc etc etc are murderers also. Even worse, because they gave the kid a glimps of what their lifes COULD be but never WILL be. Thanks to their nutrition ways at home. I think we should burn few of those people as well, kills way more. I mean, religionistas should join, it's not like obesity was ever a good thing in the bible.
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:19
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Well, this is a little threadjacky, but what's the difference between killing the guy painlessly and letting him die of old age while serving out a life sentence? Like I said, I do agree that it's all but impossible to be absolutely certain we have the right guy, so on those grounds it is problematic. I'm not saying the DP is just, only that there is a distinction between it and abortion in terms of moral significance. It's a question of whether a punishment of the guilty is too harsh, as opposed to whether innocents are being deliberately punished. Yes, I know, "it's just a chunk of cells," etc. That is indeed the question at hand. But if it's more than a chunk of cells, abortion or anything like it would seem to be fundamentally wrong.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Elok
What is, letting him live out a life sentence? I mean, lethal injection really is about as painful as a flu shot... |
Do you really think that a person going to be executed speculates more about how it's done, than the fact that he is going to die ?
Anyway, this is totally irellevant when talking about abortion because it demands some kind of consiousness wich a fetus don't have.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Elok
Er, to get back on topic, Spiffor, I wasn't suggesting that women revert to the role of permanent housewife. Even from a totally selfish perspective I wouldn't want that; if you want a docile and stupid animal you should get a cow, not a woman. |
This is what I thought about your opinions too   But if you advocate to get rid of all forms of family planning (abortion and contraception), the logical consequence is the disenfranchisement of women. If you advocate the "only" ban of abortion, you take a step, albeit not a completely extremistic one, in that direction.
quote:
But a fully enfranchised group still has to accept some unpleasant truths. To take one's place in society one has to realize that life is quite often unfair, and sometimes tolerate a great personal wrong for the sake of greater justice. We all do it on some level-when a guy drives on the shoulder of the road to get ahead of you, he's breaking the law, but if there are no police around he has to be tolerated, because it would not be just to take the law into your own hands. Yes, that's an awkward example, and I know it's easy for me to say seeing as I won't have to carry a kid, but this is all off the top of my head in early morning, so cut me some slack. |
To do that, one has to consider abortion as a "great personal wrong". Many women do so, and avoid abortion on purpose, either by a successful prevention, or by keeping the unwanted offspring.
Some women percieve it as a wrong, but still better than raising an unwanted kid, and thus accept to abort if prevention failed (despite being a male, I belong to this category)
Some people don't see any problem with abortion at all, and use it as their primary means of family planning.
In all cases, our societies give a choice to women about it. I don't think anybody has ever been forced to abort in our societies. Our modernity allows women to precisely avoid these situations where unfairness is the rule.
Just like, in our societies, we don't say "tough luck, but life isn't fair" to raped women, to victims of thuggery, to cripples, or (in Europe) to the jobless. The comparison isn't perfect either, but the gist of it is here: as our societies progress, we're further and further from the law of the jungle, and we are more and more protected from the situations where "life is't fair".
quote:
To put it another way, if a guy impregnates a woman by accident and she decides to have/keep the kid, he can be forced to support the child even though he did not have any "choice" in the affair. It's not the same as having to carry and give birth to the child, but isn't that a case where personal concerns are overridden for the sake of the child? |
It strongly depends on the societies and on how the parents interact.
Over here, fathers may avoid their fatherhood from being recognized altogether, if they pull the good judicial strings. For example, a friend of mine has given birth 2,5 years ago. In a few monthes, she'll finally know whether she is allowed to perform genetic tests to prove the fatherhood of the father.
In my situation, should my gf become pregnant, it would be a terrible blow both to her and to me. Because her pregnancy would strongly disrupt (if not destroy) her studies, while it would force me prematurely on the job market, before I can get all the marketable skills (and thus good jobs with a future) I could have. And despite both of our situations being strongly disrupted by a pregnancy, we are among the people who would suffer the least. How many people have had to waste their potential to take a MacJob, in order to pay the bills created by an unwanted kid?
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06-11-2004 23:48
(me) - but it isn't always clear if a statement are to be taken as a joke or a serious statement. But thank's - i think we agree.
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