07-11-2004 00:47									#1
	2146 End Turn and 2147 Discussion Tired of ads?

Current Status

Gaians
Pop 14
Social Engineering
frontier, planned, wealth, none

Hive
Pop 57
police state, planned, survival, none

Data Angels
Pop 16
frontier, planned, wealth, none

Spartans
Pop 19
frontier, planned, survival, none

Morgan
Pop 31
frontier, free market, wealth, none
Cash on Hand 72 (owe 13 to Sparta) = 59 available



LABS

Social Psych
Every 5 years, 3 years to go.

Tech Cost 276, Accum 109, Per turn 60

Net Income 56 (prior to stockpile bug and share to Sparta)


Income from Commerce 10
We owe Sparta 5 for Profit shaing and 8 for tech purchase (total 13) this turn.


Military Situation
I can't see the any non Morgn unit. There are no native life forms in sight (other than the fungul tower that isn't moving anytime soon).


Military Suggestions

This is a very busy turn. Where are we going to move the new rovers and probe team?

Keep our southern probe parked in the fungus to guard the southern approach.

Keep a certain amount of cash on hand so that we can probe any enemy units that invade our territory.


Other Thoughts/Concerns

This can be a very busy turn.

1. We have 4 CPs built

2. Do we move the probe from Morgan Aero onto the trans foil in the fungus outside of Morgan Mussels (because this was previously agreed I moved the trans foil there)? I did not move the probe team because we have not yet decided what to do with it.

3. Do we establish a base this turn with the CP east of SSR? We could move the Vander Eud supported scout onto the river fungus square and then next turn move the CP through that square and down the river over the next two turns. Although I kind of would like to do this I think establishing the base, now and then moving CP own the river in 4 turns is better.

4. I moved the probe foil out of RFR and it should make the open sea next turn.

5. What are we going to do with all of the remaining units we have?


Possible Rushes this Turn
There's a lot of them. We have 59 available ECs after paying Sparta. How many do we want to spend and how many do we want to rush?

We need to send 13 ECs to Sparta to honor the treaty and installment purchase.

Money Valley (4) - SC 44 - 8 (4 min) = 36
Morg. Ind. (2) - Probe Team 31 - 12 (6 min) =19
Morg. Vul. (3) - SC 37 - 10 (5 min) = 27
SSR (4) - SC 37 - 8 (4 min) = 29
Vander Eud. (3) Gator Boat 41 - 12 (if worker is moved from 1,1,1 square to 0,2,2 square, 6 mins) = 29 (or 31 if worke stays at 1,1,1 square)
Whohabitat (4) - SC 44 - 10 (5 min) = 34

I'm thinking rush the Gator Boat and the Probe at Morgan Ind. This would leave us 9 ECs let over.



I am attaching the saved turn I did.

I rushed nothing and moved nothing other than the trans foil and the Gator Boat. I gave no orders to any formers.


Mead

Attachment: acdg3-morgans-2146.sav
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	07-11-2004 10:50									#2
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I would be more concerned about losing the PEG than a Spartan invasion, speaking of which, LETS SWITCH TO ADAPT ECO! We could get adapt eco in 3 turns if we went at 50% labs for 3 turns, and got a little extra research. Right now I find 4 turns feasible, so we could get away with 40% labs, with maybe a little bit of extra research in the later turns.

The Gaians have Gene Splicing and doc mobility.
The Angels have Progenitor Psych.
Neither has Ethic Calc.

The Spartans have all our techs but biogenics and prog psych.

If we had shitloads of money we could start the PEG 3 turns from now, but we'll probably be able to do it in 4 turns. Note that I am not factoring the effects of any new bases.

I would restrict rushing to crawlers needed to get the PEG. I would rush by rushing the needed crawlers 3 turns away from the base we build it in (I vote for Scorpi Ski Resort.), then next turns, the bases 2 turns away then turn after that the remaining bases.

Mead, you made a mistake. We don't have 4 CPs, we have 5 In several turns Mead? Mussels will make another CP. I would prefer all (or most) of the 5 CPs to be built on the same turn, and then we switch to demo to avoid drones.

Therefore, before we do this turn I STRONGLY RECOMMEND we agree on where we place these new bases. I have proposed where to place them earlier in the city planning thread. If there are proposals for different base placements, especially since my proposed base spacing is very ICSish, please post them ASAP so we can agree and then take this turn.

The CP in the east is in range of a rainy square, so we could deploy it shortly.

I would have formers go forest and roads. I would put the probe team on the transport and move the gator foil out. I have no opinion on the military except for the probe team to go in the foil, the foil and the gator boat.

Last edited by arginine on 07-11-2004 at 10:58

	07-11-2004 23:39									#3
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quote: Originally posted by arginine I would be more concerned about losing the PEG than a Spartan invasion, speaking of which, LETS SWITCH TO ADAPT ECO! We could get adapt eco in 3 turns if we went at 50% labs for 3 turns, and got a little extra research. Right now I find 4 turns feasible, so we could get away with 40% labs, with maybe a little bit of extra research in the later turns.

Is that all the tech we need for PEG?

quote: *** I would restrict rushing to crawlers needed to get the PEG. I would rush by rushing the needed crawlers 3 turns away from the base we build it in (I vote for Scorpi Ski Resort.), then next turns, the bases 2 turns away then turn after that the remaining bases.

How many crawlers do we need in addition to the 'half SP on wheels'?

quote: Mead, you made a mistake. We don't have 4 CPs, we have 5

Whoops, there's just so many of them it was easy to lose track of all them.

quote: In several turns Mead? Mussels will make another CP. I would prefer all (or most) of the 5 CPs to be built on the same turn, and then we switch to demo to avoid drones. Therefore, before we do this turn I STRONGLY RECOMMEND we agree on where we place these new bases. I have proposed where to place them earlier in the city planning thread. If there are proposals for different base placements, especially since my proposed base spacing is very ICSish, please post them ASAP so we can agree and then take this turn. The CP in the east is in range of a rainy square, so we could deploy it shortly.

I have no problem with ICSing. I would like to push one CP east as far east as fast as we can to ensure we claim all that land. Deploying the eastern CP where it is right now, this turn is OK with me. I would also like to push one CP south to the chokepoint.

quote: I would have formers go forest and roads. I would put the probe team on the transport and move the gator foil out. I have no opinion on the military except for the probe team to go in the foil, the foil and the gator boat.

I want the 2nd Gator boat rushed to double our exploring and meeting (infiltrating) chances next turn.

I wanted to rush the Morgan Insdustries probe, not only to ensure we have some defenses next turn, but also to cheaply free up the build que for a crawler (plus the stockpile bonus).

Mead

	07-11-2004 23:39									#4
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Is it legal to have someone else open the turn, just to see what techs would be available if we switched?

I think this info is available with the MM tech spreadsheet, but not everybody has the software to use it. I don't have Excel.

Last edited by jtsisyoda on 07-11-2004 at 23:47

	07-11-2004 23:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda Is it legal to have someone else open the turn, just to see what techs would be available if we switched?

I didn't choose any tech when I opened the turn. It was already chosen last turn.

The turn I posted in our forum is not the finished turn.

It is awaiting our decisions, then your playing and posting. You should be able to to look at the tech choices.

Oh, I see what your asking, you want to know if we can do a tech change and see hat is available.

If we do the tech change and Adapt Eco is no availabl hen we just lost half our tech for no benefit.

Drouge has held in the past that if a practice is not probited by the rules then it is allowed. This is kind of like diplomacy. I think that we should be able to do it.

Just to be on the safe side, I think we should ask Drouge first.


Mead

	07-11-2004 23:54									#6
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I PM'd Drogue and Method about it. I rechecked the rules, and it's not clear to me. Parallel turns are not allowed, but the question is, is this "playing the turn" or more like checking AI diplo options?

	08-11-2004 00:21									#7
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I started from Mead's save, but haven't finished. Waiting on the tech ruling and any more input on movement or base sites. I made some base suggestions in the last turn tracking thread... check those out.

	08-11-2004 01:53									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Sticking a base 1 square north of the eastmost CP will put every square on our peninsula within 5 squares of one of our bases (based on the guessed landmass). If we still have unclaimed territory in the east, we could stick a base 2 squares NE of that. We could also stick another base east or west of the synth defense team to grab a little real estate from Yang. Mostly it will make for a 'fortress' base due to its strategic location.

As for military units, I want the probe ship to head directly south to meet the human player south of us (whom we might be able to quickly infiltrate . The transport will go west to meet the AIs. I have no opinion on our defensive units this turn.

Last edited by arginine on 08-11-2004 at 02:29

	08-11-2004 02:09									#9
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From a post from jtsisyoda during last turn's discussion.

"We can probably go with Democracy in 2148 -- found three bases that turn: (24,22), (29,3), and (35,5). Chokepoint base can be founded in 2149 or 2150. (I flubbed the terraforming and lost two former turns.) Also, (23,11) (arginine's suggestion, I believe) and (22,6) seem like good candidates after that."

I have to open up the game from my computer that is packed up to look up the coordinates. I don't know where (24,22), (29,3) or other coordinates refer to.Could we use landmarks to locate stuff, or give the coordinates of a city on the map to use as a reference?

Last edited by arginine on 08-11-2004 at 02:32

	08-11-2004 04:16									#10
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Still trying to catch up with Strategy, but trying to help in other ways : o)

Hope this helps.

Edit: Ok, little help. How do I post images?

Last edited by gerikes on 08-11-2004 at 04:26

	08-11-2004 04:40									#11
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Click on the botton 'post reply' below the last message in the thread, its on the right hand side to get to the regular reply screen (I'm putting this in just to make sure). One of the buttons above the new message is IMG. Click on it. A box should come up giving you the option to put in a pathway of where the image is at. Select the image you want. Then post, and the image should show up.

Last edited by arginine on 08-11-2004 at 04:48

	08-11-2004 04:58									#12
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Ok, we'll try this again. :P

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=58190_a5df4ad.JPG

Last edited by gerikes on 08-11-2004 at 05:29

	08-11-2004 05:00									#13
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well, I couldn't get mine to show, heh heh heh.

I can see the link. Good. Thanks.

	08-11-2004 05:19									#14
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in order to display the image, you should insert html tags instead of [ IMG ]...

< a href="/forums/http://...../...JPG " > < / a >

	08-11-2004 05:47									#15
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda I PM'd Drogue and Method about it. I rechecked the rules, and it's not clear to me. Parallel turns are not allowed, but the question is, is this "playing the turn" or more like checking AI diplo options?

Let us know as soon as you find out the answer from Drogue or Method. If you get the go ahead I'll check it out from the turn I have on my machine. I should check back on poly about 2 hours from this post to see if you found out.

Actually, it would be faster if Drogue or Method would post here.

If I'm not available, and someone else is, then I would be happy if someone else could check this out for jtisyoda.


Mead

PS

Although I usually don't like changing my objective (research or otherwise), I agree that if we can change to Adaptive Eco (and if that is what we need for the PEG) then we should. I guess this in large part due to the PEG being are actual objective (that we couldn't reseach this time because Adaptieve Eco was not initally offered to us).

	08-11-2004 05:59									#16
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Regarding city placement,

I put up a city placement scheme a while back in the turn thread 'city planning'. If an alternative city placing scheme is going to be used, it would be nice for it to be posted. So far no other long term city planning scheme has materialized.

My suggestion would be NW square to (21,5), SE 1 square to (25,23), (23,21) remains in place, (35,5) to (37,5) or (35,5).
As for the other two bases, lets stick them in somewhere that they will fit in, i.e. cram them in. Here are some suggestions: (28,6), (22, 12), (18,12), (17,17), cram a base in somewhere in our south amoung the cities it they will fit in. Right now our forming isn't up to snuff (reason to try to get the clean reactor soon.)

I argue it is legal to switch the tech one is researching, because we can then switch research again back to the original tech without expenditure of reserach points. If I wanted to be really accurate and violate the rules I would have built a few cities to see how they would effect research output. I merely looked around and did completely reversible SE adjustments (like switching to demo and back).

Last edited by arginine on 08-11-2004 at 06:04

	08-11-2004 08:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by arginine Regarding city placement, I put up a city placement scheme a while back in the turn thread 'city planning'. If an alternative city placing scheme is going to be used, it would be nice for it to be posted. So far no other long term city planning scheme has materialized. My suggestion would be NW square to (21,5), SE 1 square to (25,23), (23,21) remains in place, (35,5) to (37,5) or (35,5). As for the other two bases, lets stick them in somewhere that they will fit in, i.e. cram them in. Here are some suggestions: (28,6), (22, 12), (18,12), (17,17),

I am supporting ICS right now for immediate growth and production, so long as we get a few bases where it counts for strategic placment (towards the east and south).

quote: I argue it is legal to switch the tech one is researching, because we can then switch research again back to the original tech without expenditure of reserach points. If I wanted to be really accurate and violate the rules I would have built a few cities to see how they would effect research output. I merely looked around and did completely reversible SE adjustments (like switching to demo and back).

The thing I think jtisyoda was asking was it permissible under the rules to check whether a tech was available before changing the research goal in the official turn play.

I agree that it should be permissible, but we should have the Gods concur, beforehand.

Mead

	08-11-2004 08:31									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mead The thing I think jtisyoda was asking was it permissible under the rules to check whether a tech was available before changing the research goal in the official turn play. I agree that it should be permissible, but we should have the Gods concur, beforehand. Mead

And Arginine is saying, I believe, that it's completely fine to try to switch research goals in the turn, because if it turns out while the turn-player plays it that we don't have the option for Adapt. Eco, the game allows you to select the tech you were already researching with no penalty (In this case, when the tech options come up, if we don't see Adapt. Eco, we can just select Social Psych without getting hit with a penalty). I don't know if this is true, though. (Although this is what I think Arg is saying, not exactly what he might actually mean :P) Could we make a test game just to test this theory?

Edit: By the way, I think we should wait for approval and see what options switching gives us in the non-official turn, but in case we don't get a response in time...

Also, I hear strong belief for (23,21) as a base site. There's currently a terraformer making a road. If we do go ahead with the plan to build there, should we save the former turns by stopping it or would there be a benefits for completing the road? For example, a colony could get there and still set up with 1/3 moves remaining (This is more a me-gaining-knowledge question than something to debate over).

	08-11-2004 10:58									#19
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I opened an old single-player game and tested the tech switch. You don't lose any lab points if you pick the same tech again. So, since we haven't heard from a mod yet, I'll go ahead and try switching. It would really bite, though, if neither Adap Econ nor Soc Psych became available. Ouch.

As for Gerikes' question, if you mean (23,11), yes, the road is intended to save movement so the next CP out of Mussells can found a base the same turn it's created.

Right now, I'd prefer to cram bases on the perimeter, for a couple reasons. There, we can raise land where there used to be sea. We're also sort of delaying putting down any bases until we can put down enough to make it worth switching to Democracy, so we might as well move the CP's as far as we can. Later bases, to get us to 27 bases from our current goal of 18, can then cram in the middle very quickly.

	08-11-2004 11:43									#20
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We lost 55 lab points switching to Adap Econ. However, we'll gain about 200 ec over five turns by building PEG 5 turns earlier. That's if we build it before the Angels, and of course switching to Adap Econ now is our best shot at that.

Attachment: acdg3-morgans-2146_endturn.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	08-11-2004 11:44									#21
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Map...

Attachment: 2146_map.jpg
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	08-11-2004 11:44									#22
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F4:

Attachment: 2146_f4.jpg
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	08-11-2004 11:45									#23
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F2, labs:

Attachment: 2146_f2.jpg
This has been downloaded 30 time(s).

	08-11-2004 11:47									#24
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I had our scout try to move onto the river in fungus, but encountered a worm. The odds were even, so I attacked it... we lost, though. The other scout can go south next turn to cut it off. The scout in Van Eud can head toward the volcano to cover those bases if necessary.

	08-11-2004 21:31									#25
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda As for Gerikes' question, if you mean (23,11), yes, the road is intended to save movement so the next CP out of Mussells can found a base the same turn it's created.

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry about that. But thank you for the clarification.

Also, after you played the turn and switched the tech, I opened my game and switched and noticed that while Adaptive Economics was in the list, Social Psych was not. I don't think I'll ever understand how those menus work. :P

	08-11-2004 22:29									#26
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda Is it legal to have someone else open the turn, just to see what techs would be available if we switched? I think this info is available with the MM tech spreadsheet, but not everybody has the software to use it. I don't have Excel.

That's fine, as long as a tech isn't chosen, and it has to be done by someone not about to play the turn 9due to reload messages).

Sorry for the delay in replying.

	08-11-2004 22:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue That's fine, as long as a tech isn't chosen, and it has to be done by someone not about to play the turn 9due to reload messages). Sorry for the delay in replying.

So the person who's running the "test game" can hit Shift-R or whatever to see the options of techs to change to, but while in that test game cannot choose from this menu?

	09-11-2004 05:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by THE RULES It is allowed to build a turn simulator, where you can test out battle results or strategic plans years in advance. It is also allowed to use parallel turns of the official game to test out AI diplomacy ... or some innocent internal affairs orders (crawler & former movements etc). However it is NOT allowed to use the official game turns to play ahead by eg testing out battle orders, scouting with units, or for example moving your probe units to check the probe cost of something and only then decide whether or not you're going to probe it. In clarification: Any exploring, military trials or probe actions, is not allowed. Testing former orders and AI diplomacy (without accepting any deal) is allowed. For anything else, check with Drogue before hand.

Bolded relevant sections. I'd say this counts as "innocent internal affairs". And yes gerikes, that's correct.

(yay, i came to the same conclusion as drugs. all by myself! )

	09-11-2004 14:07									#29
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Nicely done, Method

	14-11-2004 00:25									#30
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I'll be unavailable for approximately 32 hours. If the turn comes around and you don't want to wait, I suggest asking Chaunk to play it.