12-11-2004 10:17									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Ned, I just want you to understand that it's important for the U.S. to be successful in Iraq. One of the first ways we can do that is to assess and evaluate the enemy fairly. We have to know his goals in order to win. A blanket assessment that insurgents are "terrorists" or "blood-maddened thugs" or "rats" as I've heard them referred to makes us weaker. It makes us underestimate his abilities and his support. That was also a mistake made in vietnam.

A generic statemtent that is fair. It would be unfair to say, however, that people who oppose democracy are freedom fighters, or that people who rule by terror are mere rebels, a term that can apply to good guys and bad guys equally.

We made a mistake in Vietnam? What was that mistake?

	12-11-2004 10:22									#212
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You lost.

	12-11-2004 10:29									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Ned A generic statemtent that is fair. It would be unfair to say, however, that people who oppose democracy are freedom fighters, or that people who rule by terror are mere rebels, a term that can apply to good guys and bad guys equally. We made a mistake in Vietnam? What was that mistake?

People who oppose what some guy calls 'democracy' aren't necessarily terrorists. Just because someone says they intend to bring 'democracy', don't mean they want people to elect the government the majority of said people want.

"You can have any car you want as long as it's black"

-Henry Ford

If someone says you can have any democracy you want as long as it's controlled by those guys over the sea, then 'democracy' in that sense is just a slogan. Besides, there's evidence to argue that USUK are specifically trying to prevent certain politically representative groups in Iraq from partaking in any election or democratic prosses by making them 'Outlaws', fit only for extermination, and thuroughly out of the political process. Rinsing the deck so to speak. It's easy, back em into a corner, call em fanatics, terrorists, insurgents, Saddamists whatever. Say they're controlled by Iran, or Al Qaeda. Then you don't have to oppose em in an election.

	12-11-2004 12:32									#214
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Some Swedish reporters depict Falluja as a "Grozny II"

	12-11-2004 13:23									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The real story of Falluja is the sophisticated tactics the insurgents are using - defensive positions modelled on Soviet urban warfare doctrine according to US officers - popping up undetected behind the frontline screen to attack the US HQ itself - withdrawing their main force before the battle - launching attacks in other cities whilst die hards take the brunt of the assault in Fallujah - luring the coalition forces into ambushes - forcing the coalition to attack mosques - melting back into the civilian and refugee population when the heat gets too much. They are doing well.

Where are you getting this info?

We haven't heard anything about it. Of course, because it gets screened from the major networks.

Would be nice to get an outside source to read.

	12-11-2004 13:50									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Some Swedish reporters depict Falluja as a "Grozny II"

Surely, Grozny II must apply to the second Russian assault on the place?

	12-11-2004 14:52									#217
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To think that Grozny gives such negative associations. Poor Ivan Grozny, what did he do to deserve that kind of bad rep?





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Ops, according to swedish radio, battles have taken place in serveral locations in Bagdad. Nån har skitit i det blå skåpet!

Last edited by Kropotkin on 12-11-2004 at 15:04

	12-11-2004 15:47									#218
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Wow a whack-job trifecta! Mobious, Tripledoc and Problem Child all on the same page, quoting from the Guardian and giving each other thumbs up.

	12-11-2004 16:07									#219
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And now you too!

	12-11-2004 16:57									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin And now you too!

What, I don't get a Guardian quote?

	12-11-2004 17:15									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Where are you getting this info? We haven't heard anything about it. Of course, because it gets screened from the major networks. Would be nice to get an outside source to read.

I think your media self censors.

	12-11-2004 17:26									#222
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I thought the Christian Science Monitor was part of our media...

	12-11-2004 17:38									#223
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That's where I get all my information...

	12-11-2004 17:40									#224
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As I said earlier, swedish radio claimed that there's fighting going on in Bagdad and that they would get back as soon as the knew more. Well, they haven't. And it doesn't seem like any other of the sources I usually read says anything about it either. Looks like news media, do have the same problem as I have with emails; it's to damn easy to press the 'send'-button.

No fighting in Bagdad then.

or perhaps there's a cover up!

	12-11-2004 18:04									#225
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The BBC has excelent links to various other news agencies. I find them very usefull.

From these combined sources, indeed a picture emerges of heavy fighting in various cities. Airstrikes on Mosul isn't having a picknick, and it does seem heavy fighting in parts of Baghdad does take place.

Falluja appears to be a hellhole, not only for the civilians, but for the US/Iraqi forces as well.

	12-11-2004 18:25									#226
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quote: Ya. Of course, some of em are probably just people that live there trying to survive. If a foreign army invades your hometown, starts killing people, women and children included, maybe you'd take up arms, defend your home, your neigbourhood.

	12-11-2004 20:12									#227
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Everything I am hearing about Falluja seems to imply that it is unlikely if even half of the buildings in the city survive. The insurgents keep moving from building to building as we keep knocking buildings over.

Civilian deaths *still* haven't even been hinted at as far as I can tell, which is often a bad sign.

Looks like the battle is very, very messy.

-Drachasor

	12-11-2004 20:20									#228
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There's also reports of insurgents popping up in areas that's supposed to be cleared. The americans will probably have to go over the city a couple of times to really clear it from opposition and to arrest anyone and everyone that's trying to hide.

	12-11-2004 20:34									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin There's also reports of insurgents popping up in areas that's supposed to be cleared. The americans will probably have to go over the city a couple of times to really clear it from opposition and to arrest anyone and everyone that's trying to hide.

That looks as bad as Baghdad, where there seems to be a bomb exploding and a gunfight taking place on a daily basis

I'm also unpleasently surprised by the Mosul fights, as I had hoped the Kurdish region would be spared the recent turmoil.

	13-11-2004 01:17									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin There's also reports of insurgents popping up in areas that's supposed to be cleared. The americans will probably have to go over the city a couple of times to really clear it from opposition and to arrest anyone and everyone that's trying to hide.

you mean kill everyone and anyone that's trying to hide.

	13-11-2004 01:27									#231
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Shoot first, ask questions later. Compassionate conservatism at its best. Here come the Iraqis now with open arms, flowers, and poetry.

	13-11-2004 01:46									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Civilian deaths *still* haven't even been hinted at as far as I can tell, which is often a bad sign.

I wouldn't expect many civilian deaths given the rather porous nature of the siege to allow the civilians to leave.

	13-11-2004 02:28									#233
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Shoot first, ask questions later. Compassionate conservatism at its best. Here come the Iraqis now with open arms, flowers, and poetry.

Just makes it suck more because illegal-occupyers going around shooting first and asking later is particularly gauling for those loosing sons daughters husbands wives fathers and mothers in this John Wayne campaign.

People can't leave Falluja now, it's very dangerous, the place is teeming with trigger-happy American Marines who have already proved thay they think nothing of opening-up on families in cars, old folk waving white flags etc. Not to mention that any male older then nine and younger then eighty is seen as an Insurgent. Anyway, where to go, if you live in a slum city like Falluja, what resources could you expect to draw upon out there in the counttryside/desert or other cities like your own. It's not like the yanks bothered to setup refugee camps or anything, probably because that would entail some sort of responsability for the people that would turn up. US government doesn't even care to provide for its own people back in America, let alone a bunch of deadbeat I-rakees.

Speaking of the Insurgents (who are for the most part- quite legal in their resistance of the US military, foreign jihadi's notwithstanding) they won't give up. Why should they, they endured thirty years of Saddams tyranny, they're united regardless of ethnicity or sect, and their cause is actually just. Breaking Falluja won't break the spirit of Iraqi resistance. This is a Blitz-Spirit in action, so keep on mindlessly and unquestioningly blasting away there, but be prepared for a long war.

	13-11-2004 02:40									#234
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Why should they, they endured thirty years of Saddams tyranny, they're united regardless of ethnicity or sect, and their cause is actually just.

I'd be more inclined to say that it isn't. Jus in bello is a *****.

	13-11-2004 02:45									#235
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er...

So anyway, hopefully once the Americans are gone, Iraq might get a break, maybe the yanks and the brits will leave it alone and it might get to pick a leader for itself (with accompanying stable political system) that isn't a dictator, puppet, or theocrat (like what happened to Iran, out of the dictatorship, into the theocracy).

	13-11-2004 02:53									#236
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I wouldn't expect many civilian deaths given the rather porous nature of the siege to allow the civilians to leave.

Airstrikes, artillery and heavy machine guns aren't exactly selective to what they hit. They go straight through brick walls miles away and kill people you didn't even know were there.

	13-11-2004 02:59									#237
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I somethimes wonder if people really think and act that much different from they heyday of the Mongols, when fortified cities would surrender without a fight after seen a neighbour being massacrated. Would the insurgency still be going if Fallujah had been flattened the first time round?

I guess it's back to my old opinion that it doesn't pay to be Evil Light.

	13-11-2004 03:00									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Airstrikes, artillery and heavy machine guns aren't exactly selective to what they hit. They go straight through brick walls miles away and kill people you didn't even know were there.

I wouldn't expect many civilian deaths given the rather porous nature of the siege to allow the civilians to leave.

	13-11-2004 03:00									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I guess it's back to my old opinion that it doesn't pay to be Evil Light.

Heehee, that's why the Democrats lost the election!

-Drachasor

	13-11-2004 03:01									#240
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I wouldn't expect many civilian deaths given the rather porous nature of the siege to allow the civilians to leave.

I wager more civilians will die than insurgents by at least a factor of two.

-Drachasor