06-02-2005 11:30									#391
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism re: enter into new alliances against countries that it has clearly been discussed that we would no longer war with? I seem to remember being told to bind the Macedonians with us against Carthage! Since that was already done, what's the harm in Bind our other committed allies with us against Carthage. In the War Poll Carthage was our sworn enemy.

This is the only point i'm going to really step in and mention here. The other points to me are about playing skill or style, not about democracy game action, and to me we accept that not everyone here is of different style and skill, and if we don't like that we always have SP. However, a DemoGame must adhere to the concept of a demo game, or it becomes nothing but a SP game itself (or in this case becomes a Succession Game).

About this point:

First off, I do not remember you being told to pursue an alliance against carthage with anyone... perhaps I missed that poll , if so link me to the thread. In the War Poll, it was clearly stated we wanted to war with Carthage until Spain was delivered, and no further. Unless you think 20 turns will be taken to do that, which I highly doubt, then you should have realized we didn't want any new alliances against anyone.

Second thing. The bigger concern to me, is the alliance against Persia. Although I'm a big fan personally of fighting with Persia, it seemed pretty clear that the Senate is not interested in doing such things, and the same with Scythia. You say so yourself in the War Poll page ... yet we find ourselves bound to 20 years of war with both, meaning we have at least 3 enemies for the forseeable future.

Why? What benefit is brought to us with this, when instead we could likely have bought peace with both nations relatively cheaply in a few turns? Or if necessarily bought peace expensively, if it is considered worth it. AI alliances are rarely worth the paper they're signed on, and regardless, it's 20 years of war with 3 civs!

quote: I respected the will of the Senate based on the comments and results of the polls. I did see any rules or laws forbiding the Emporer from signing treaties.

No. You ignored the will of the senate both in wishing Carthage to be finished quickly, and in wishing Persia/Scythia to be held off until peace can be won. I certainly do not remember any polls about alliances (again links would be nice).

There are no laws against emperors signing treaties - but this is a democracy game. Micromanaging I can do without (see previous posts!), but treaties that bind the future emperors, must be discussed. This is not a succession game like our others, where sure, do whatever you want - this is a democracy game, where the turnplayer allows the Senate to guide his actions. I suppose each person has an idea of what "micromanaging" versus "must be discussed" entails - but I doubt you will find many people in this Senate who believe war alliances fall under the first category.

Anyhow, everyone please head over to the poll I set up at Paddy's request. Let us get on with our lives, and start by trying to replace the founder of this great game, to the best of our abilities.

	06-02-2005 11:34									#392
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please dun go paddy

oh paddy boy the fields they are a calling...its you oh you paddy who must stay and not go

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	06-02-2005 12:11									#393
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A really sad day in our history

	06-02-2005 14:31									#394
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I didn't load the save until today. Not being the Emperor and all. Loading now.

Cities can be defended by killing the attackers. I thought that's why Heavy Cavalry was for, no?

As to alliances against Scythia, and Persia - those wars will probably last anyway, so no big harm was done IMO. Remember, that this is Demigod difficulty, so the AI will be really hard to convince to peace.

I must, however, agree with one point about alliances. We'll need a mere 5 turns (10 tops) to capture the last Carthaginian city in Spain, allowing us to sign a very favourable peace treaty. IF we did that now, we'd face grave consequences for breaking treaties with our allies. And the Senators have clearly said, that we now should aim for a quick peace with Carthage. Your mistake, Emperor, admit it.

Last edited by Modo44 on 06-02-2005 at 14:54

	06-02-2005 18:15									#395
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Like Modo I just looked at the save for the first time.
There are some workers threatened, ok, so we will recapture them.

There are two cities supposed to fall by next turn:

* Wines to dye for - well, that will be close to impossible to prevent. This is the only bad action I can see in scrobisms reign, since we might have been able to buy peace with Persia to save Cypros. But then, with a good navy we can retake it anytime

* Beneventum - Here a simple garrison change will help. Take an additional garrison from Segusio; Replace that one with a garrison from Padua; Replace that one with one from Carthago Nomore

This way the city will stay Roman and there will be no unhappiness in the region.

I think some people should ease up (calm down? whatever) here. Nothing happened that we couldnīt live with. Overall I am pleased with emperor Scrobismīs reign, and I will support him before the Senate. Now letīs get back to business, the plebs is already starting to whisper about the lazy Senators not making decisions about the Republic but involving in pity conspiracies!

	06-02-2005 18:33									#396
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It happens to be only you and a few others who ever mention conspiracies Senator

all others were having a discussion

yes it was behind closed doors, the same as you would have with your associates if you wanted to discuss some matters

I am saddened though at you attitude to just losing citizens of Rome. We fight, yes our people have fought hard, blood has been spilt both in battle and in the field, to build this Empire that we love, and to just be flippant about it is quite... well I am lost for words

	06-02-2005 19:13									#397
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We have granted them citizenship???

This is outrageous!

[OOC]
I am all fine with sueing EMPERORS for bad REIGN. Just donīt let it cross the line to real life.
Also I said the PLEBS was whispering about conspiracy, not I myself
[/OOC]

	06-02-2005 19:39									#398
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Snoopy369, Micha, Modo44, Ormuzd:
Thank you for your candid views.


Senators of Rome:
The question of an Emperor making alliances without the Senate's approval has come up.

I have been asked to post links. I do not have a staff that can sift through all of these posts to find links. So I will tell you what I remember after a quick review of the record.

I seem to remember a dispute between Emperors Modo44, and A*71, and a censure vote that I called for. (Pay back is a b1tch - anyway ) It was decided that the Emperor would have to consult the Senate in the areas of making war and peace. Then the conversation seemed to push for discussions with the Consuls of Rome for war and peace. But when the topic of Consuls and what they are came up the Senate decided against an extra layer of red tape. Many said to let the Emperor rule, others voted for drinks at the Three Weeds. Which is the way I seem to remember the Censure vote going too.

This very Senate and the PPP complained that this Emperor was already not taking action quick enough. So I acted.

During the dispute between Modo44 and A*71 Rome honor and committment to treaties came up. I remember very clearly being told that Rome will be true to herself.

These treaties that I signed were to prevent the rest of the known world from going to war with us. I posted polls and our commitment to peace and war. When the Celts and Carthage allied against us, I acted to preserve our Empire. The Alliance with Macedonia has been very beneficial. They are fighting Carthage near Oblia for us, and running interference for us with Persia. If the Senate feels that this is not beneficial - change it. Alliances with the Goths were set up to prevent all out war across the entire Northern Border. The Senate is welcome to deal with war from the Celts, Goths, and Scythians - break those alliances! But the Senate made it clear to me that there was no love towrads the Celts. They were next on our list. Let the Goths fight them for now and if somehow they can hit a Carthaginian unit so be it!

It has now been suggested that I could sue for peace with Persia. Us pay them? This Senate through its warmongering has made it clear that it will not pay for peace and considers all it's enemy. If I would have paid for peace, I'd already be dragged to the Colliseum and fed to the lions.

Did I make a mistake by signing a pact agaist Carthage? Now that I see that they are willing to pay us for peace - maybe I did. But confronted with the world going to war against us. I looked to preserve peace where I had it.

Do with me as you will.

	06-02-2005 19:49									#399
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Now I have questions about these accusations of treason and dishonor on my part. I have served Rome as Emperor and Senator with honor. To call me a traitor in the back rooms is truly a disservice to Rome herself. This is a sad day for Rome.

	06-02-2005 20:01									#400
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism (Pay back is a b1tch - anyway ) Do with me as you will.

as you wish

	06-02-2005 20:19									#401
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Emperor skrobism, I'm not questioning with whom you have signed alliances, but against whom. I am well aware of the fact, that Macedonia is our ally and will be one for long. But the simple fact is, we didn't need to be committed to war with Carthage for that long. And many Senators agreed on that some time ago. Basically, you shouldn't have included an alliance against Carthage in the deal, and everything would be fine to my eyes. You did, so it isn't.

	06-02-2005 20:46									#402
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And in hindsight this alliance against Carthage might have been a mistake. Then again I was looking to preserve and lock our allies into the current peace.

	06-02-2005 20:51									#403
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism And in hindsight this alliance against Carthage might have been a mistake. Then again I was looking to preserve and lock our allies into the current peace.

WELL you wont be da first nor the last leader to "NOT" do da right thing

	06-02-2005 22:46									#404
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Skro, the issue for me, plain and simple, is that you did not consult with the Senate before you undertook such alliances. Alliances in Roman law are in fact approved by Senate vote - albeit this is not real Roman law, to me this should have been a clue. You should not have undertaken ANY alliances without clearing it with us first, unless it was something that was patently clear we had already approved such a thing without bringing words to the matter. It's quite possible any or all of these things would have been approved -- not the carthaginian one probably, but who knows? -- and that would clear your name in my book.

A side note about alliances, I don't think allying with the AI helps us much, anywho. In Demigod the AI is going to ally with us only if it's probably warring with the enemy anywho, and if it's not interested in warring with us. ROPs actually do more than mil. alliances; AIs break mil. alliances all the time, but a ROP is rarely broken (as it has PERMANENT consequences, while mil alliance breaking eventually is wiped out, i believe).

	06-02-2005 23:02									#405
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We need to follow protocol

anyhave it or do we go from accused to convicted?
I have heard what I have and it seems to me a necessity of at a minimum censorship and perhaps some flogging is being called for..yes this I am positive of

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	06-02-2005 23:10									#406
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That's up to the Senate... a motion of censure or whatever (via a poll) is appropriate, if people deem it necessary. As acting PP, I may not make motions directly, so one of you has to bring it up on the floor, if you desire it. I will create a poll if asked based on specific charges brought.

Or we can go on playing the game, and just learn from our mistakes...

	06-02-2005 23:16									#407
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 That's up to the Senate... a motion of censure or whatever (via a poll) is appropriate, if people deem it necessary. As acting PP, I may not make motions directly, so one of you has to bring it up on the floor, if you desire it. I will create a poll if asked based on specific charges brought. Or we can go on playing the game, and just learn from our mistakes...

well, as Emperor he has some guidelines to follow..

This seems to be the consensus

I feel Flogging necessary for reinforcing what he should have been aware of

I could administer this myself

Let me know

	06-02-2005 23:40									#408
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I would like to express some grief over the fact that Paddy felt that much uncomforable with the situation that he felt it to be necessary to step down as our PP.

Whatever the reason is, this is a great loss for Rome!

I would like to have a massive standing ovation for he who has led our discussion. He who has committed so much time and devotion to Rome. He who sees every loss committed by a Roman as a personal loss.

Rome saluts you

	06-02-2005 23:40									#409
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EDIT:

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll well, as Emperor he has some guidelines to follow.. This seems to be the consensus I feel Flogging necessary for reinforcing what he should have been aware of I could administer this myself Let me know

/EDIT.



Now just let Senator GT flog this poor soul so we can all get back to regular business...

	06-02-2005 23:44									#410
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bah, crosspost. Now my previous message looks a little displaced...

quote: Originally posted by McMeadows I would like to express some grief over the fact that Paddy felt that much uncomforable with the situation that he felt it to be necessary to step down as our PP. Whatever the reason is, this is a great loss for Rome! I would like to have a massive standing ovation for he who has led our discussion. He who has committed so much time and devotion to Rome. He who sees every loss committed by a Roman as a personal loss. Rome saluts you

I wholeheartedly agree, although I am rather new to this demogame and thus not that familar with the past happenings.

	07-02-2005 00:15									#411
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ooc
I too would like to thank PP Paddy, and again offer a BIG I'm sorry if I ruined his weekend. I would like to know what made him feel so uncomfortable that he felt the need to walk away. He made this sound like it was a RL sad event. I don't mind the criticism of my gaming, but if someone took it so seriously that someone would else would quit over it - good grief!

Thanks again Paddy, and that's to Snoopy for stepping in.
/ooc

Wait just a minute on this flogging! I'm not sure all of us are in favor of this. My back is at stake here.

	07-02-2005 02:38									#412
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism Now I have questions about these accusations of treason and dishonor on my part. I have served Rome as Emperor and Senator with honor. To call me a traitor in the back rooms is truly a disservice to Rome herself. This is a sad day for Rome.

I do not remember that you have been called a traitor

I know that it was mentioned in a discussion recently along the lines of:

"...were his actions those of treason? is so what do we do?..."

would you not allow discussions

do you feel that the Senators of Rome should not be allowed to look over matters of State and discuss the possiblities and consquences?

Play Hard, Party Harder

	07-02-2005 04:01									#413
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Paddy and the Senate,
The actual words used about me were, "There is talk of treason, that the party / parties involved may have brought dishonour and corruption into this very room through their actions."

I would not discourage discussion. It was me that demanded that this be brought out into the open to be discussed. I'm glad it has been brought out. I just don't see any charges or questions that would lead one to jump to treason on my part. If there are other facts that I am missing let's hear these, otherwise I wish that the Senate would clear my name. You may call me inept, or disagree and question my policies. But, to call me a traitor without proof and only whispered rumors from a back room... No. As an Emperor of Rome I deserve more respect than that.

	07-02-2005 04:15									#414
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Well spoken, Senator skrobism.

	07-02-2005 04:49									#415
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respect is an instrument used by an observer not the one weilding it

To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
To relate or refer to; concern.

now one could make a case Rome and it Laws would be just a tad above the Position of Emperor.can we all agree?

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	07-02-2005 05:07									#416
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Thank you Micha.

Senator Grandpa Troll,
Then let me request that you observe that I am a former Emperor and deserve at least the same respect that all members of this Senate deserve. I am not sure why you insinuate that I have placed myself above the law. If you have accusations against myself or other past and honorable Emperors speak these now.

	07-02-2005 05:18									#417
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism Thank you Micha. Senator Grandpa Troll, Then let me request that you observe that I am a former Emperor and deserve at least the same respect that all members of this Senate deserve. I am not sure why you insinuate that I have placed myself above the law. If you have accusations against myself or other past and honorable Emperors speak these now.

What I am saying..and you are correct former Emperor is you did not follow the spiritual guidance offered by orders rendered..

as for respect I was quoting off you

respect is earned not given

should you feel you are not being respectfully treated I would suggest humility versus caling folks to be respectful
ok

I am also a Senator

I feel this whole mess has been a mostunfornute set of events which seems to have sidetracked our looking after the welfare of what is Rome

Let us either now bring forth punishment or censorship..flogging preferrably for his wit

Please I beseech my fellow Senators let us now call a quarum and dispose of this event

what say ye in this matter fellow Senators?

	07-02-2005 05:35									#418
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I'm confused to what this is all about. Are you roleplaying now, or what?

	07-02-2005 05:51									#419
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re: "I feel this whole mess has been a mostunfornute set of events which seems to have sidetracked our looking after the welfare of what is Rome"

It seems that we do agree on something.

re: respect & "respect is an instrument used by an observer not the one weilding it"

I said that? Must have been a long night at the Three Weeds.

I only ask for what is due to me as a Senator and former Emperor of this glorious Republic that I love. The same that is due to all of us. I expect that you would do the same if a cabal was hatched in a back room that besmirched your reputation hinting at treason. I would be asking the same on your behalf.

I not only think I am due repect from those in the shadows but so does the entire Senate and Rome herself. If I am a traitor guilty of crimes, someone, lay out the case. You do Rome harm by your inaction; or clear my name now.

	07-02-2005 05:54									#420
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ooc
Lord Nuclear,

I hope we are role playing because I am not looking forward to a RL flogging. It's not what I'm into. I can't speak for GT though, but I have to assume that he isn't into this kind of thing either.
/ooc