10-11-2004 22:20									#31
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Sorry. Fixed the link now.

	10-11-2004 23:13									#32
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Yep, Modo, I had independently come up with some similar thoughts re barb threats and activity.

How do I place a town?

	11-11-2004 01:11									#33
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Personally, I don't like the idea of barbarians that cannot be conuqered at their source. The Rise of Rome scenario deals with the issue by creating three unplayable civilizatons to serve the role of the peoples inhabiting the areas not controlled by the major civilizations. In a scenario where players start with only one settler, a similar effect might be achieved through a large disparity in the quality of starting positions for the major empires and the pseudo-barbarians.

Question: does anyone know the effects of creating a locked alliance that is not locked into being at war with anyone else? If that could create a trigger so that each pseudo-barbarian civ is allied with another one, with a war against one meaning war against both, that could go a long way toward overcoming the disadvantage of the pseudo-barbarian civs' being individually smaller and weaker.

	11-11-2004 03:05									#34
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay ...The Rise of Rome scenario deals with the issue by creating three unplayable civilizatons to serve the role of the peoples inhabiting the areas not controlled by the major civilizations....

Does anyone know how to do this?

	11-11-2004 06:02									#35
	Got spare money?

I haven't tested it, but my guess would be to lock the desired civs into their starting positions but exclude them from the "Playable Civilizations" in the "Scenario" tab of "Scenario Properties."

	11-11-2004 06:23									#36
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Nope... just tried it: When you place towns for a civ, then take it off the playable civs list, the towns disappear.

	11-11-2004 07:38									#37
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I just looked at the Rise of Rome .biq file, and I found a pattern. Under the "players" tab, in the upper right corner, there is a "Human Player" box. That box is checked for the playable civs, and not checked for the unplayable ones. That's probably what we're looking for (and I hope this isn't another false alarm, seeing as I'm once again suggesting something without testing it first). Note that you'll have to select "Custom Player Data" from the "Scenarios" menu before that tab becomes available.

	11-11-2004 07:44									#38
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I just tested it, copying the Rise of Rome scenario and checking the "Human Player" box for Egypt. That made Egypt playable (which it normally isn't - I'd forgotten about its being a fourth unplayable civ in that conquest). So it looks like if you lock the civs into their slots under the "Players" tab, the ones with "Human Player" checked are playable and the others aren't.

Last edited by nbarclay on 11-11-2004 at 07:55

	11-11-2004 09:05									#39
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...just came up with a possibility for reining in the European civs (if it's still an issue). In Conquests, we have the ability to make scenario-defined terrains (like Cedars of Lebanon in the Mesopotamia Conquest). My suggestion would be to have two types of forests: European Forests (which cannot be settled on and would have a higher move cost), and plain old Forests (with the properties of normal Forests; they'd be in a custom terrain slot, to minimize the amount of changing of terrain we'd need).

Alternatively, restrict European civ access to regular Settlers, and force them to build a more expensive version (say, 50 shields/3 pop). Or stick them in a painfully restrictive government and limit their ability to switch out by making any govt-techs flavor techs of a flavor they won't like.

	11-11-2004 09:12									#40
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...some of the "surprises" are just evil, Theseus. I like it.

	11-11-2004 10:09									#41
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Hey Vlad!

Yeah, though I'm not too familiar with all the scenarios and mods out there, I think I hit on a fairly simple way to keep people awake. :chuckle:

I'm looking forward to getting this to a playable state... I need to figure out how to use the debug mode to see how AIs do against each other, and then definitely how to fix the Civilopedia entries with minimum muss and fuss for the player. Then I guess a MP version after that.

C'mon... some others should take a peak at the 0.9 biq!!!

	11-11-2004 10:11									#42
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Here's my latest version of a FAQ... not a programmer or developer's quality AT ALL, but it'll do for now:

DONE:

* Combined AU Mod 1.05 with Rise/Fall of Rome map (one thing I like about this map, in addition to generally good geo-detail, is that many of the then-current trade routes are already in place, as well as some representive land development by lesser-developed and unnamed civs).

* Researched and placed start locations:

Babylonians - Babylon
Egypt - Memphis
Hittites - Hattusas
Phoenicia (Byzantines) - Tyre
Persia - Persepolis
Greece - Aegai
Carthage - Carthage
Romans - Rome
Celts - Entremont
Germanic Tribes - Gothiskandza
Scythia (Mongols) - Kameneskoe Gorod

BTW, the above is sort of my representative historic order.

* No settling on desert or forest; longer time to clear forest. Added marshes where needed to slow down certain REXes.

* Placed ruins of Troy.

* Added a HUGE number of resources all over map. This was generally a judgement call based upon my understanding of the historic RW, and also with its own internal logic (e.g., furs in the north versus more spices and incense to the south and east). Included everything EXCEPT up through uranium... there were a number of uranium resources on the base map which I assume were placed for AI desires. Needs review.

* Changed Ancient Cavs to WEs at 3.2.1 (gave Carthage the only ivory).

* Gave Scythia The Wheel at the start.

* Changed various city and leader names for Phoenicia.

* Added many more barb huts, east to west, cutting Iberian peninsula, and miscellaneous. First level Barbs from huts are Horsemen; second level are Barbarian Keshiks at 3.2.1 with one extra HP and enslave (producing Archer).

* Placed various Barb units in various locations.

* Turned on plague.


TO DO:

* Barbarians - Possible 12th civ... spread around east to west, intersersed with barb huts?

* More goody huts?

* Gave Babylon and Egypt an early edge (have put luxes closer to them), but need to ding them somehow to represent the relatively early decline of their eras... maybe not Egypt so much, as the land is inherently limiting.

* Changes to Civilopedia.


GENERAL:

* Consider SP vs. MP... what tweaks for each? Which 8 civs for MP?

* Playtesting?

* Objectives other than standard win types? For all? Per civ? SP vs. MP?

	11-11-2004 11:54									#43
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As for dinging Babylon, I think adjusting its AI governor settings might do the trick. Just turn everything under "build often" off, and set "build workers" to never.

	12-11-2004 22:32									#44
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It seems like a certain part of the world is just destined for armed conflict....

Attachment: debug war.jpg
This has been downloaded 79 time(s).

	13-11-2004 08:32									#45
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quote: [SIZE=1] Heresson might be a good source of information about them, but beware his territorial claims, as he will try to convince you, that practically the whole Eurpoe is rightfully Slavic territory.

Because it is

	17-11-2004 21:29									#46
	Got spare money?

T, have you played with the tech tree at all?

There are four eras to work with in all. I think the ideal end point for a scenario such as this would be the historical fall of Constantinople - 1453... late middle ages.

So perhaps divide the "ancient" age into the bronze and iron ages, and divide the "medieval" age into the "dark" and "medieval" ages? This probably also requires new buildings.

I know that's above and beyond what AU is really about (minimal changes, keeping a largely "stock" feel), but this is a scenario, after all...

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 02:47									#47
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I toyed with that idea, Arrian, but for just the reason you pointed out, I have kept it more true to stock, i.e., you start with a Settler, a Worker, and maybe a Scout, and play through as an epic game.

BTW, I have been working on the scenario throughout the last week, having played through about 20 debug games and tweaking all sorts of stuff to get somewhat balanced AI performance. I'm on my last debug for the moment, and will be posting version 0.98 for people to review in a little bit. It's actually been a lot of fun!!

	18-11-2004 02:53									#48
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Cool.

I'm going to download The Ancient Med mode and give that a shot at some point to see what they did with the tech tree and whatnot. It's entirely possible I'll find it too far removed from the Civ I know and love.

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 03:40									#49
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OK, here it is!!!

For anybody interested, or for that matter anybody who has more experience with mods and scenarios, PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT AND COMMENT!!!

As a reminder, this is meant for use in SP epic play, and also a possible AU PBEM course.

There are three files in the zip attachment:

1) AU Ancient Civs Mod 0.98 - I have not actually played as any of the civs yet... that's what I'll be doing next.

2) AU Ancient Civs Mod 0.98, debug version - America is on a one tile island in the middle of the Atlantic. This is what I've been using to playtest the AI civs.

3) A first turn save using the debug version and playing as America - If you've never debugged a game (I hadn't!), you should check this out. You get to see everything that the AI civs do throughout the game. I suggest leaving the research, economic, and happiness sliders alone; turn off all animations except maybe battle; then start turning off the various 'show movement' options... it's cool to watch what's happening, but can get boring after a while; find something heavy to put on your ENTER key (I use a metal file)... then watch the AI civs go at it!!

Once I get a bit further, I'll add a README FAQ... for the moment I'll just put what I have in terms of notes so far in the next post.

I still don't know what to do about the Civilopedia.

Have fun!

Attachment: au ancient civs mod - sp 0.98.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by Theseus on 19-11-2004 at 22:50

	18-11-2004 03:58									#50
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DONE:

* Combined AU Mod 1.06 with Rise/Fall of Rome map (one thing I like about this map, in addition to generally good geo-detail, is that many of the then-current trade routes are already in place, as well as some representive land development by lesser-developed and unnamed civs).

* Time line is 2000BC to 2050AD:
25 turns at 25 years
25 turns at 20 years
25 turns at 15 years
65 turns at 10 years
100 turns at 10 years
100 turns at 5 years
100 turns at 3 years
100 turns at 1 year

* Researched and placed start locations:
Babylonians - Babylon
Egypt - Memphis
Hittites - Hattusas
Phoenicia (Byzantines) - Tyre
Persia - Persepolis
Greece - Aegai
Carthage - Carthage
Romans - Rome
Celts - Entremont
Germanic Tribes - Gothiskandza
Scythia (Mongols) - Kameneskoe Gorod

BTW, the above is sort of my representative historic order.

* No settling on desert or forest; longer time to clear forest. Added marshes where needed to slow down certain REXes. Clear forest is 6 turns, and forests are worth 15 shields.

* Placed ruins of Troy.

* Added a HUGE number of resources all over map. This was generally a judgement call based upon my understanding of the historic RW, and also with its own internal logic (e.g., furs in the north versus more spices and incense to the south and east). Included everything EXCEPT up through uranium... there were a number of uranium resources on the base map which I assume were placed for AI desires. Needs review. AI only debug games generally ended via domination or culture win in late Industrial or early Modern eras.

* Added many more barb huts, east to west, cutting Iberian peninsula, and miscellaneous. First level Barbs from huts are Archers; second level are Kurqan Riders at 3.1.1 with one extra HP and enslave (producing Archer).

* Placed various Barb units in various locations.

* Turned on plague.

* Increased aggression for most AI civs. Decreased AI-AI trade rate for all difficulty levels. Changed a number of 'build never' and 'build often' settings.

* Changed various city and leader names for Phoenicia.

* Gave Germanic Tribes a new UU: Gothic Raider, available at Iron Working, 4.2.1 with one extra HP, amphibious, cost 25g, uses Berzerk animation.

* Gave Scythia The Wheel at the start. Keshiks have one extra HP.

* Changed Statue of Zeus to produce War Elephants at 4.2.1 with one extra HP (gave Carthage the only ivory), ignore mountains and hills.

* Subs and Nuclear Subs are hidden nationality; Nuclear Subs have stealth attack against Subs and Nuclear Subs only.


TO DO:

* Test human play of each civ.

* More goody huts?

* Changes to Civilopedia.


GENERAL:

* Consider SP vs. MP... what tweaks for each? Which 8 civs for MP?

* Playtesting?

* Objectives other than standard win types? For all? Per civ? SP vs. MP?

Last edited by Theseus on 19-11-2004 at 22:51

	18-11-2004 08:21									#51
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I still think Sumeria should be in there.....very important ancient civ, pre-dating Babylon.

Check out this or this out for a couple of interesting overviews.

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 18-11-2004 at 08:28

	18-11-2004 09:32									#52
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yep, I agree that Sumer was incredibly important... but:

1) I could only fit so many civs into the Fertile Crescent.

2) The starting point for this, in my mind at least, is a bit later in history.

3) Babylon and the Hittites, and further, in another civ-generation, Persia, are certainly good proxies for all those that came before. That said, I've always thought that it would be cool if certain techs were in some way tied to certain civs... in this case Code of Laws.

Anyway, the rest of you laggards, download the damn thing and give me some feedback!!!

	18-11-2004 09:42									#53
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Fair enough. I've been heard - that's all one can ask

I'll try to get around to having a look at this, since Theseus has put a lot of work into it.....not that I'm particularly qualified as a scenario judge! As you know, PBEM commitments make it hard to find time to play SP games these days

	18-11-2004 09:44									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ...I've always thought that it would be cool if certain techs were in some way tied to certain civs... in this case Code of Laws.

In the Conquests, certain tech tree paths are restricted to some civs.....is this what you mean? If so, there may be a way to do it in the editor.

	18-11-2004 09:45									#55
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Another thought.....if you want to start up a PBEM game using this scenario I'd be happy to participate.....even though I don't have time to play the ones I'm already in

	18-11-2004 09:47									#56
	Got spare money?

Yeah, in the process of setting up this mod, I've noticed that there are a whole bunch of techniques that have not yet been exploited.

Tying the tech tree to certain civs is one... also, there is something called "Landmarks" that I haven't seen anyone use much as of yet.

Hey, I am just happy to have taken a running start at this AC thing... we'll see where to go from here!!

	18-11-2004 14:08									#57
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Landmarks are used in the Conquests, for special versions of ordinary terrain types, for example the "Cedar of Lebanon" forest variation. You can give them different economical statistics, while sharing the graphical appearance with their origin.

	18-11-2004 19:59									#58
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Theseus,

Check out The Ancient Med (TAM) mod. It might give you some ideas.

I downloaded it last night and starting playing with it... and went to bed at 2am.

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 21:54									#59
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I did, Arrian... it's very very cool, well researched and considered, and did in fact inspire me in a few ways.

Too far from stock for my purposes here, however.

IMHO, though, Firaxis should get the TAM guys to do a scenario for Civ4.

	18-11-2004 22:22									#60
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Ok, cool. I know it's way out there from stock, but I just wanted to make sure you had seen it.

I was playing around with it on random standard maps (like I usually play). I'm pretty much going in blind, and it's been interesting.

I'm not sure I like the unit balance (early defenders suck, barracks show up LATE) and the barb strength is something I'm adjusting to (yikes, 9.3.1 advanced barbs!).

What I think I'd like to see is a composite of the stock game, AU Mod, and TAM (with an eye toward an ancient/early medieval themed epic game designed for random maps, not just focused on the med). Lots of work, though.

-Arrian