09-11-2004 06:52									#1
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As mentioned in the 'Next AU Course' thread on 11/8:

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Hey, I have a new idea: How 'bout we do our OWN Conquest? The AU Ancient Europe Scenario? I've posted in a couple of places (including the dreaded OT forum ) that I have started on a lengthy reading of ancient historical fiction, starting with Crete and working my way forward up through the Mongols. Here is the OT link: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ghlight=Ancient I also posted in the Creation forum and contacted LouLong at CFC to see if anyone had created such a map or scenario... unfortunately, nothing dead on for my purposes. The C3C civs I would think to be involved: England Celts The Germanic Tribes Rome Greece Persia Egypt Carthage Mongols Vikings (maybe, if we wanted to extend a bit forward) The key, I think, would be a really great RW map centered on the Med. We could, of course, as in RL, introduce some of the diplo aspects that have been discussed... or define our own form of special 'Conquest' win. Thoughts? Edit: It also occurs to me that this could potentially be played in both SP and MP concurrently, depending on the goals of each. Edit: I am sure we could also enlist the guys in Creation or at CFC to help us design a map to start with.

And with further thoughts/corrections:

quote: Originally posted by Theseus * Give Babylon (sorry, forgot them at first) and Egypt some kind of early edge (two Settlers?) but ding them somehow to represent the relatively early decline of their eras. * Change Byzantines (sorry, forgot them too) to Crete/Minoa * Give Carthage War Elephants at 3.2.1, a little earlier than Chivalry... Construction? Or maybe change Ancient Cavs to WEs, and give Carthage the only ivory? * Really isolate the Celts, Germans, and Mongols, but give them the opportunity to build empires that can be significant players at the right times. As to SP versus MP, I would suggest doing a fully loaded SP version with as many civs as make sense historically, and than create a subset version for MP. And yes, there should be specific theme(s)... that's what I was referring to by adding diplo aspects, but we could focus on other things as well. Heck, we could even have a specific theme or objective per civ!!

So, given that I had at least piqued Sir Ralph's interest, I went ahead (without screwing up, I hope ) and started on this project... see the next post.

	09-11-2004 06:55									#2
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Have you looked at RaR/DyP? They have many innovative ideas the AA .

	09-11-2004 06:56									#3
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Here is how far along I've gotten, and, again assuming I haven't screwed the pooch, I am now ready for someone (or somebodies) with more experience with the editor, scenarios, setting up AU games, setting up PBEMs, etc., to help!!
__________________________

DONE:

* Combined AU Mod 1.05 with Rise/Fall of Rome map (one thing I like about this map, in addition to generally good geo-detail, is that many of the then-current trade routes are already in place, as well as some representive land development by lesser-developed and unnamed civs).

* Researched and placed start locations:

Babylonians - Babylon
Egypt - Thebes
Hittites - Hattusas
Crete (Byzantines) - Knossos... tricky, needs review
Persia - Persepolis
Greece - Athens (possible move to Aegai? my preference, i.e., Macedonians)
Carthage - Carthage
Romans - Rome
Celts - Capitol name?
Germanic Tribes - Capitol name?
Mongols - Karakorum

BTW, the above is sort of my representative historic order.

* Placed ruins of Troy.

* Added a HUGE number of resources all over map. This was generally a judgement call based upon my understanding of the historic RW, and also with its own internal logic (e.g., more spices and incense to the south and east). Included everything EXCEPT up through uranium... there were a number of uranium resources on the base map which I assume were placed for AI desires. Needs review.

* Added many more barb huts, east to west, cutting Iberian peninsula, and miscellaneous.

TO DO:

* Assign right civs to start locations.

* Barbarians - Possible 12th civ... spread around east to west, intersersed with barb huts? Or possibly just placing a BUTTLOAD of Barb Horsemen (50? 100?) north of the Black Sea?

* More goody huts?

* Gave Babylon and Egypt an early edge (have put luxes closer to them), but need to ding them somehow to represent the relatively early decline of their eras... maybe not Egypt so much, as the land is inherently limiting.

* Change Byzantines to Crete/Minoa.

* Change Ancient Cavs to WEs at 3.2.1 (gave Carthage the only ivory). Maybe give them 'mountains as grass land'?

* Rename Germany to Germanic Tribes. Also, give Germanics an ancient UU.

* Really isolated the Celts, Germans, and Mongols, but need to give them the opportunity to build empires that can be significant players at the right times. Done OK?

* Possibly change Mongol traits, and give them The Wheel at the start?

* Changes to Civilopedia.

* Scenario description.

GENERAL:

* Consider SP vs. MP... what tweaks for each? Which 8 civs for MP?

* Playtesting?

* Objectives other than standard win types? For all? Per civ? SP vs. MP?

Attachment: au ancient civs mod - sp 0.90.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	09-11-2004 06:59									#4
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Have you looked at RaR/DyP? They have many innovative ideas the AA .

Damn, that was faaaast, pb2000!!!

I had looked around at the various mods, but did not want something so extensive, whether for my own play, PBEMs, or AU.

But if they have any great ideas (or TAM, or TETurkhan, or whoever) that fit in with AU's philosphies, suggestions would be more than welcome!

	09-11-2004 07:07									#5
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BTW I want to state EMPHATICALLY that this is something I've whipped out in a few hours, and that I fully hope that as many as possible of the esteemed worthies here chime in with all of the many corrections/suggestions that I have certainly missed!

I hope this gets some support and help... an idea just occurred to me: as I sweep through the historical fiction, perhaps to play (or at least start) a game matching each period as the then appropriate civ!!

	09-11-2004 07:12									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Damn, that was faaaast, pb2000!!! I had looked around at the various mods, but did not want something so extensive, whether for my own play, PBEMs, or AU. But if they have any great ideas (or TAM, or TETurkhan, or whoever) that fit in with AU's philosphies, suggestions would be more than welcome!

Well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. IMO, RaR would be what the AU mod would be if it had all the same philosphies minus 'keep it as close to stock as possible'. As such, it wouldn't fit in very well, but you're also talking about giving different civs different advantages etc., so I'm not too sure.

	09-11-2004 07:26									#7
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Yep, keep it as close to stock as possible... I believe the only major changes to gameplay that I've suggested are:

1) Change the name of the Byzantines to the Cretans (or Minoans)

2) Change a trait so that the Mongols have The Wheel at the start

2) Give the Germanic Tribes (OK, that's a name change too ) an ancient UU

I guess I'm OK with appr. that much change from stock, or so, just not as much as the more significant mods or certainly the Conquests.

	09-11-2004 07:32									#8
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I don't suppose you'd be in for putting irrigation and mining into the tech tree?

Oh, and I think handicapping various civs (and giving Carthage the only Ivory) are prety significant changes too.

	09-11-2004 10:28									#9
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What about Sumeria?

	09-11-2004 10:37									#10
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 I don't suppose you'd be in for putting irrigation and mining into the tech tree? Oh, and I think handicapping various civs (and giving Carthage the only Ivory) are prety significant changes too.

F*ck, I didn't even notice... these are not part of the scenario?... didn't laying the AU Mod over it deal with that?

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 What about Sumeria?

Uh, yeah...

Where do you think they should fit in?
____________

Again, I am not a reknowned map or scenario maker, and very much welcome contributions!

Sorry if I am doing an amateurish job at getting a map/scenario together, but I just got excited at the concept, and here we are.

Help!

	09-11-2004 12:20									#11
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The Celts and Germanic tribes didn't live in cities, so it's hard to give them a capital at all. But there are quite some very old cities especially in southwestern Germany, the foundation of which goes back to the Romans. Köln = Cologne = Colonia Agrippina is one of them. There are other old cities (may be not quite 2000 years, but still) like Mainz, Trier, Worms, Aachen, Regensburg and others. Given that even the later German imperators, such like Barbarossa, didn't have a permanent residence, but wandered around from one palatinate to the other, the choice of the capital really does not matter much.

	09-11-2004 12:47									#12
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By the way, when it comes to Europe, you can't possibly forget the Slavic tribes, the ancestors of modern nations like the Russians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Bulgars and others. Heresson might be a good source of information about them, but beware his territorial claims, as he will try to convince you, that practically the whole Eurpoe is rightfully Slavic territory.

	09-11-2004 16:36									#13
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As I've been thinking and researching this, I seem to be zeroing on on a starting point (considering RW history) of between the fall of Troy and one of the first major attacks by Persia upon the west, i.e., Thermopylae... so that means appr. 800-500 BC.

Regarding the Celts, Germanics, and Slavs, what would have been their best considered capitols at that time?

	09-11-2004 20:44									#14
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I don't know about the Celts and the Slavs, but the Germanic tribes were just that, tribes. They weren't a united nation and therefor couldn't have a capital. Each tribe, like Saxons, Suebes, Cheruskians etc. controlled a certain region. Each region may have had a center, but I doubt it was any different than the villages and settlements where most Germanics lived.

There are 2 possible solutions: Either we name cities by the tribes, i.e. Saxonia, Suebia etc., or we take some of the oldest real cities on German territory. The former would have the advantage of historical accuracy, but the disadvantage, that the "cities" aren't really cities. The latter wouldn't be accurate (these cities didn't yet exist and if they did, they were inhabited by Romans), but would name real cities.

	09-11-2004 21:58									#15
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Thanks to Sir Ralph for reminding about Slavics What have we done without our Germanic firends

If I understood correnctly this Conquest will deal with Europe just after fall of Rome: Early Middle Ages. Thus, I would suggest to put Scyth and Sarmats instead of Mongol, Mongols did not appear in Europe until XIII century. About capitals and city names the story is even more tough than for Germanic tribes because there were no roman colonization of these territories. Sarmats were located roughly in "Poland"/"Prussia" and Scyths are on the north shore of the Black Sea.

BTW. one small request: do not be too meticulous on real positions of the cities, like most of BreakAway Games' Conquests which resulted in CxCxC city placements in the most cases.

	09-11-2004 22:55									#16
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In general, this is not meant to be 'too' accurate.... just a broad sweep of the ancient era, keeping as much as reasonably possible near to the stock game.

Thus, I am trying to use the basic civs as much as I can... the Mongols, in my mind, stand in for the Huns and those other eastern invaders that came later.

Also, I don;t want to try lay out cities of the various civs... rather, this scenario will start normally with a Settler on the starting location. The scenario should be playable as an epic game, as an AU course with defined objectives, or, in an alternate version (only 8 civs), for PBEMs.

Regarding some of the open questions above:

Celts - I think I'll use Entremont as Firaxis did... it stretches way back into the Celt-Ligurian era, and remained a stronghold, if not the capitol, well into the Roman era.

Mongols - Karakorum seems reasonable. Can't quite place it on the map, so it'll be somewhat west of the RW location, but still good and far away for the purposes of this scenario.

Germanic peoples - Again, this is a pretty ancient period... far enough back that I am thinking of the Goths as being representative founders. Thusly, I'm thinking of the starting location as being in the vicinity of Gdansk, more or less where Berig landed from Gotland, and naming the first city Gothiskandza.

Slavs - Not sure what to do.

Sumeria - I'm afraid of concentrating that much activity in the Fertile Crescent, although that of course was what happened in RL. On the other hand, didn't Sumer effectively get absorbed into Babylon and Persia by the first millenium BC?

	10-11-2004 00:03									#17
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Here are the starting locations I've got so far.

Attachment: auac minimap.jpg
This has been downloaded 99 time(s).

	10-11-2004 00:27									#18
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1. I am not sure that Crete make any sence. It will be very weak: island and very close to others, no ways to expand, almost forced OCC. The best thing to omit them.

2. Move "greek" X to the north: to the Macedonia instead of Athene to help somewhat with starting location.

3. Common you have space for Scyth's and Sarmats: just take Mongols out. They are placed on the edge: it is strange starting location anyway. Edge of the map, wrong spot (correct spot whole map size eastward) and too much space. Scyth and sarmats will perfectly make sense for the role you intend for mongols: fast moved horse type UU.

4. Restrict colonization of desert: no cities in the desert -- flood plains only, so agricultural civs will not be overpowered.

	10-11-2004 02:09									#19
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1. Yeah, I was worried about Crete too. Maybe Phoenicia instead?

2. Yes, I had noted that Aigai might be a better location than Athens... on the other hand, I wanted to keep Greece and Rome a bit behind the curve as compared to the Near Eastern civs.

3. Maybe convert Mongols to Scythians and follow your suggestion? I'll have to figure out a good location for gameplay as I intend it, but perhaps to the NE of the Caspian Sea?

(Also, what did you think of the idea of starting the game with 50-100 Barb Horsemen somewhere?)

4. VERY good call.

Thansk for the input!

	10-11-2004 03:01									#20
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Crete/Phoenica:
I doubt there is really a spaces for any more civ's in between Greeks, Hitties, Babylon and Egypt, unless you will do somethig cute like giving 3 traits for Phoenica instead of standard 2. Maybe move Egypt off the coast to the centre of Nile?

Scyths:
good position will be North of the Caspian (not on the coast), so their empire will not be too centred. Actual position was North of the Black Sea.

In general, I have a big worry about Europe: just 3 civ have so much prime estate: grassland/rivers. Rome and Greeks might been very easily bottled around their penesuli. Could you strip any bonus food resorce outside Europe (exept Greece/Rome) to undercut REXing potentials for Celts, Germanics and Scyths. Maybe we indeed need one more rival between Gemanics and Scyths?

Make sure there are plentifull bonus food resources in Mediterrain and Middle East to compensate for crowding there.

	10-11-2004 03:09									#21
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There needs to be something to slow down the Celts & Germans from just exploding. My first thought would be copious amounts of marshland in their areas. That might strain realism, though. My second thought would be to make forest like marsh - clear before settling. And crank the turns-to-chop back up around 10 turns. The third option would be to make settlers more expensive, which you may want to do anyway.

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 04:09									#22
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OK, here's what I've got for the scenario description:

The Ancient Civs Mod is based upon the C3C Rise of Rome map and the AU Mod, whose main purpose is to challenge the player with a need for deeper strategy. See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=102887 for the list of changes. The main changes from the AU Mod are: 2000BC-2050AD timeline, providing some prebuilt improvements; no cities on forest or desert, and longer 'clear forest'; Greek capitol moved; Byzantines are Phoenicia and Mongols are Scythia (with The Wheel); Germanic Tribes have an ancient UU, the Gothic Raider.

	10-11-2004 04:11									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here's a revised minimap.

Attachment: auac minimap 2.jpg
This has been downloaded 93 time(s).

	10-11-2004 05:38									#24
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Moved the capitol of Egypt south and off-coast, to Memphis.

Added some surprises.

	10-11-2004 05:57									#25
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Here is the current scenario file.

It's shaping up nicely... now how do I change the Civilopedia entries??

Attachment: au ancient civs mod - sp 0.90.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	10-11-2004 07:55									#26
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It's gonna be really crowded in the middle east, but hey, it IS crowded down there...

	10-11-2004 15:26									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus * Barbarians - Possible 12th civ... spread around east to west, intersersed with barb huts? Or possibly just placing a BUTTLOAD of Barb Horsemen (50? 100?) north of the Black Sea?

Horsemen won't do against humans. All you need is 2-3 Spears forted on a hill in their path and buh-bye "barbarian horde". :?
As to a barbarian civ, you already have "barbarians" - Mongols, Goths, Celts. Plus, if you give those barbs cities, someone will capture them (a human player for sure) and so much for the barbs.

Have you considered a solution similar to this one (see "rule changes" described in first post)? Something along these lines has been done in the Medieval Conquest - play the Ottomans to find out how it looks like in-game.

Another idea would be to put a barbarian civ or separate civs (you have 32 slots, remember ) in places cut off from non-barbarian units. For example create an oasis in the desert, put a city in there and let it build some modified Horseman unit that can cross deserts, while other units can't. This way nobody will be able to take the barb cities and they will be able to build some sort of army and organise it, unlike the standard barbs in Civ3. You might use Tundra as this special terrain type, as it is almost not present on this map. Or use Mountains and make them unpassable (put Roads as "passes" through mountain ranges). Use separate barbarian civs so that they don't try to combine efforts. The ones that did come together in history are already there as separate civs that can grow normally.

[edit - typos, fixed link]

	10-11-2004 15:53									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I had the same idea (tundra as special tile) for my Ultima mod. Alas, it doesn't work. You can't put a tundra tile adjacent to a desert tile. That is hardcoded and can't be helped.

	10-11-2004 16:10									#29
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Desert -> Grassland -> Tundra. You can put Hills or Mountains on the Grassland, to make it less desirable to settle.

	10-11-2004 22:16									#30
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Modo, your link is not working.

I did come up with a somewhat different Barb solution... I'll leave it as a surprise for those who do not examine the scenario but just play it.

I currently have 11 civs in play... how do I add 'A Barbarian Chiefdom' as the 12th?