10-11-2004 20:56									#31
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quote: I think it is primarily an Irish success story, not an American failure.

It's 100% an Irish success story and 0% an American failure. This writer needs to emigrate with you, Arrian.

	10-11-2004 20:59									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ack, after reading that last post by Boshko, the Visa policy starts making some sense. Looks to me like Koreans have other Koreans to blame for the restrictions, Boshko. -Arrian

Not really. Those pregnant Koreans come over to the US completely legally. What you have to do to get to America is to prove to US government that you WILL go back to Korea. Being pregnant and having a husband back in Korea generally foots the bill. Having a crappy English-teaching job that you just started a few months ago and me as your boyfriend doesn't.

	10-11-2004 21:00									#33
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Wtf, Dan?

**** you and the high horse you ride on. I made a post the day after a very disappointing election that said I had half-seriously discussed the idea of leaving, and you can't shut up about it. I explained my reasoning, and I further explained that I'm not going anywhere yet, because I realize that things haven't gone that far. Furthermore, I've calmed down since the election, and my once-again-rational brain would rather fight than bail.

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 21:02									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Not really. Those pregnant Koreans come over to the US completely legally. What you have to do to get to America is to prove to US government that you WILL go back to Korea. Being pregnant and having a husband back in Korea generally foots the bill. Having a crappy English-teaching job that you just started a few months ago and me as your boyfriend doesn't.

My point, Boshko, is if there is a rash of Koreans who come over here to give birth and thus get citizenship for their kids, the US government might react and attempt to curtail such activity. Perhaps our government figures well-off college grads are less likely to pull that ****?

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 21:04									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Wtf, Dan? **** you and the high horse you ride on. I made a post the day after a very disappointing election that said I had half-seriously discussed the idea of leaving, and you can't shut up about it. I explained my reasoning, and I further explained that I'm not going anywhere yet, because I realize that things haven't gone that far. Furthermore, I've calmed down since the election, and my once-again-rational brain would rather fight than bail. -Arrian

I'm not for certain but perhaps you should have checked the smilie

	10-11-2004 21:06									#36
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Cead Mile Failte to all our returning immigrants! I just hope that they can find work here. As the article points out, that isn't very easy in modern Ireland with cheap African/Asian immigration labour. I would far prefer to see Erin's sons and daughters return home and take jobs, especially because the money they sent back from abroad kept this country afloat during the lean years. Surely we can provide for them as they provided for us?

The business in America is very negative despite this. A lot of the Irish in New York probably consider America to be more of a home than the Aul' Sod ever was, and so it must be heart-wrenching to leave. The USA has a right to deal with illegal immigration, but with Bush in power they've gone off the deep end completely!

Do you have any idea how hard it is to get into the States now, even if you're a European? The amount of documentation, the interview process etc., yet despite all your lofty ambitions the Mexicans are still trickling through...

There should be some sort of compromise for the Irish that have been there for a long time as illegals - maybe an amnesty for some?

I've had my rant, so to finish on something positive; the Irish are still thankful as a nation that the USA under Reagan were so open to Irish immigration in the '80's. For most kids born after 1990 it's impossible for them to visualize what a kip Ireland was in the 80's, and it was only through immigrants in America and other countries that this country was kept afloat.

So:
Bush (again)
Reagan

The USA has to be able to distinguish between friend and foe when they're choosing who should be allowed into the country, but within reason. It would be a shame to give into paranoia and abandon the legendary 'land of opportunity' that used to be known so well here.

	10-11-2004 21:07									#37
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What smilie? I see none.

If that's 'poly being wacky, I retract the F-U.

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 21:07									#38
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Isn't it amazing what the EU has done for Ireland.

	10-11-2004 21:10									#39
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I see a post-wide smilie, but I'm thinking about retracting the smilie and channeling a GP smackdown on you, Arrian.

	10-11-2004 21:10									#40
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quote: Isn't it amazing what the EU has done for Ireland.

On top of immigrants sending money home, I don't like to think what might have happened in Ireland if it hadn't been for EEC subsidies.

Hey, we had a lot of problems back in the 70's - 80's. My parents had to give almost half their income back to the government in tax until they started reducing the tax rate in the 90's.

	10-11-2004 21:11									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian My point, Boshko, is if there is a rash of Koreans who come over here to give birth and thus get citizenship for their kids, the US government might react and attempt to curtail such activity. Perhaps our government figures well-off college grads are less likely to pull that ****? -Arrian

Not really. If the US government wanted to stop people doing that sort of thing they'd just make it so merely being born in the US doesn't make you a citizen (ironically enough, Ireland did just that for exactly this reason). And keeping my girlfriend out of the country does absolutely-nothing to solve the problem, since the way that the application process goes the pregnant Koreans are generally a shoe-ins as long as their husbands have good job or a big bank account (generally as long as your parents or spouse have X amount of money in the bank you can get a visa no problem). As of now, the US government has taken absolutely no measures to curtail "that ****."

Also, it is almost exclusively the "well off college grads" who "pull that ****." And its more in order to allow their kids to dodge the Korean draft and take advantage of the very nice provisions of the Korean F-4 visa, which any ethnic Korean with a foreign citizenship can get.

And my girlfriend has a college degree in English education and it didn't help her at all .

	10-11-2004 21:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by our_man The USA has to be able to distinguish between friend and foe when they're choosing who should be allowed into the country, but within reason. It would be a shame to give into paranoia and abandon the legendary 'land of opportunity' that used to be known so well here.

It's not a simple matter of saying "he is Irish, he isn't going to be a danger" or insert random nationality. Measures has to be taken across the board and besides before everyone was up in arms at the prospect that certain nationalities got worse treatment than others. Now it's "well they are allies so they should be allowed easier access"

	10-11-2004 21:13									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Not really. If the US government wanted to stop people doing that sort of thing they'd just make it so merely being born in the US doesn't make you a citizen (ironically enough, Ireland did just that for exactly this reason).

That would require a constitutional amendment.

	10-11-2004 21:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I see a post-wide smilie, but I'm thinking about retracting the smilie and channeling a GP smackdown on you, Arrian.

Thinking about it? How dare you "think" about something! Weak, vaccilating fool! Make a CHOICE!



If you want to "lay the smack down" (over the internet ) you go right ahead. In the words of your Dear Leader, Dan, bring it on.

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 21:16									#45
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We really need to sign an open visa program with the EU and Canada which would allow the citizens of any member country to work or live in other member countries.

	10-11-2004 21:17									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Boshko Not really. If the US government wanted to stop people doing that sort of thing they'd just make it so merely being born in the US doesn't make you a citizen (ironically enough, Ireland did just that for exactly this reason). That would require a constitutional amendment.

Oh right, 14th Ammendment *doh*. Anyway, there's absolutely no causal connection between being taking advantage of that Ammendment and countries getting their visa waiver status yanked.

	10-11-2004 21:17									#47
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quote: It's not a simple matter of saying "he is Irish, he isn't going to be a danger" or insert random nationality. Measures has to be taken across the board and besides before everyone was up in arms at the prospect that certain nationalities got worse treatment than others. Now it's "well they are allies so they should be allowed easier access"

True, but let's be honest here. You let Gerry Adams into the USA. Come on, Gerry "I was never in the IRA" Adams.

Measures don't have to be taken across the board. Certain groups are more of a risk than others (aren't there more restrictions on certain Middle East countries). To hell with this PC rubbish - profiling is acceptable. It saves time and money, and puts less people at a disadvantage.

If you're capable of letting in Gerry Adams, then believe me, you should let in any Irish person.

	10-11-2004 21:18									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Not really. If the US government wanted to stop people doing that sort of thing they'd just make it so merely being born in the US doesn't make you a citizen (ironically enough, Ireland did just that for exactly this reason). And keeping my girlfriend out of the country does absolutely-nothing to solve the problem, since the way that the application process goes the pregnant Koreans are generally a shoe-ins as long as their husbands have good job or a big bank account (generally as long as your parents or spouse have X amount of money in the bank you can get a visa no problem). As of now, the US government has taken absolutely no measures to curtail "that ****." Also, it is almost exclusively the "well off college grads" who "pull that ****." And its more in order to allow their kids to dodge the Korean draft and take advantage of the very nice provisions of the Korean F-4 visa, which any ethnic Korean with a foreign citizenship can get. And my girlfriend has a college degree in English education and it didn't help her at all .

Well since when does the US government do everything right? I said this looks like a reaction against the "come to American to have your kid" thing. That doesn't mean it was a particularly intelligent reaction, does it?

I'm not sure about changing the born in the USA citizenship thing. It might be the wise choice, but I haven't thought about it, and I suppose that, despite its often wacky results, I'm kinda fond of it.

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 21:22									#49
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quote: Measures don't have to be taken across the board. Certain groups are more of a risk than others (aren't there more restrictions on certain Middle East countries). To hell with this PC rubbish - profiling is acceptable. It saves time and money, and puts less people at a disadvantage.

Yes it does, but it's untenable over the long run in the US, for a host of political reasons.

	10-11-2004 21:24									#50
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quote: We really need to sign an open visa program with the EU and Canada which would allow the citizens of any member country to work or live in other member countries.

You would be really surprised at how many Europeans would be coming our way and how few would be going the other way. I don't know how we could do this without serious disruption in the short-term. Over the long-run, I have no doubt that we would benefit, but...

	10-11-2004 21:27									#51
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quote: If you're capable of letting in Gerry Adams, then believe me, you should let in any Irish person.

Ugh. Was that under Clinton? Our choices wrt to the IRA have been poor, no doubt.

Dan's right about the profiling issue. It's politically explosive, because it smacks of bigotry. Personally, I'd like to think we're capable of profiling based on a lot more than just race/country of origin and doing it in a respectful manner. But maybe we can't. The people who would actually be executing policy - the guys & gals at the airport - are not usually our best 'n brightest. It's a trickey issue. The choice, thus far, is to be indiscriminate. That appears to be pissing people off. Well, we're gonna piss people off either way, so I guess the argument is why not piss people off equitably?

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 21:27									#52
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quote: Yes it does, but it's untenable over the long run in the US, for a host of political reasons.

So you can see the current draconian controls being relaxed in the future?

quote: You would be really surprised at how many Europeans would be coming our way

This European for one!

	10-11-2004 21:29									#53
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Up until now I'd assume most of the new polices are stopgap measures until a more coherent policy can be found. I wouldnt hold my breath though because immigration policy has always been a matter of what is convient for this country at the time.

	10-11-2004 21:34									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Well since when does the US government do everything right? I said this looks like a reaction against the "come to American to have your kid" thing. That doesn't mean it was a particularly intelligent reaction, does it? I'm not sure about changing the born in the USA citizenship thing. It might be the wise choice, but I haven't thought about it, and I suppose that, despite its often wacky results, I'm kinda fond of it. -Arrian

Naaah, it sucks up our precious resources that have become endangered. Namely OB doctors. Birthing all those illegals puts more strain on the already stretched OB's.

Tort reform!

	10-11-2004 21:35									#55
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quote: Originally posted by our_man To hell with this PC rubbish - profiling is acceptable. It saves time and money, and puts less people at a disadvantage.

How come El Al, the Israeli national airline hasn't ever had a highjacking but they spend hardly any more money on security then major western airlines have in any year since 9/11? They profile that's why. It works to since El Al has never had a highjacking dispite being an obvious terrorist target.

	10-11-2004 21:38									#56
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quote: Up until now I'd assume most of the new polices are stopgap measures until a more coherent policy can be found. I wouldnt hold my breath though because immigration policy has always been a matter of what is convient for this country at the time.

	10-11-2004 21:40									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Naaah, it sucks up our precious resources that have become endangered. Namely OB doctors. Birthing all those illegals puts more strain on the already stretched OB's. Tort reform!

Heh.

Tort reform

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 21:41									#58
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How long before we can no longer call a policy a stop-gap? I mean, it's been 3 years since 9/11. 5 years? 10?

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 21:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You would be really surprised at how many Europeans would be coming our way and how few would be going the other way. I don't know how we could do this without serious disruption in the short-term. Over the long-run, I have no doubt that we would benefit, but...

I'm sure there would be plenty of young Americans who want to work for a year in Europe though you're right about the better US economy attracting more workers. Still, economically it would make everyone more efficient as skilled workers could then move to where ever demand is greatest plus the countries with weaker economies would benifit as there would be fewer people on unemployment.

	10-11-2004 21:49									#60
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I hear ya, Oerdin. But it would be a very lopsided proposition for a while. I know several Europeans who are trying to get into the US on a permanent basis and none going the other way to Europe, even though I know a heck of a lot more Americans than Europeans.

I'm of the same opinion about the benefits to both of us, although I would strongly prefer that they become US citizens.