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DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 17:51
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Congratulations America! You finally did it! Got spare money?



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/10/n...10irish.html?hp

quote:

Back Home in Ireland, Greener Pastures
By NINA BERNSTEIN

They arrived as the New Irish in the 1980's and 90's, thousands drawn to a New York that still glittered in family lore as a place where hard work could bring prosperity.

But the glitter began to dim along with the economy and the government's attitude toward illegal immigrants. Now they are streaming back to Ireland at such a clip that in the neighborhoods they regreened in Queens, Yonkers and the Bronx, once-packed pubs stand half-empty and apartment vacancies go begging.

Some immigrants, longtime illegal residents losing hope for legal status, say they are being driven out by new security crackdowns that make it harder for those without a valid Social Security number to drive, work or plan a future in the United States.

Others, already naturalized citizens, say the price in toil for health care and education was too high, and hope for a less-exhausting life in a prosperous Ireland.

"It's the complete reversal of the American dream," said Adrian Flannelly, chairman of the Irish Radio Network in New York, who has served on an Irish government task force on returnees. The exodus from the city, he said, signals a historic shift in a relationship that is part of the city's backbone, inscribed in the subways and bridges built by Irish immigrant labor in past centuries.

Michael and Catroina Condon, both naturalized American citizens who spent 19 and 11 years in New York, respectively, say Ireland's style of prosperity promises a better life for their children. After the birth of their first baby, they said, they rebelled against the toll of seven-day workweeks to pay rising costs in a sluggish American economy.

"It's longer hours, less money, and a lot of the time you see people working for their wage just to pay their rent, to pay their health insurance," said Ms. Condon, 31, who was a corporate secretary in Manhattan before returning in September to Mullingar, in County Westmeath. Her husband, a carpenter, is starting his own business, and she envisions a wedding-planning enterprise.

The exodus is hard to quantify, but unmistakable, according to observers in the travel agencies, real estate offices, moving companies and pubs that cater to Irish New Yorkers in the Bronx and Queens. Christina McElwaine, a spokeswoman for the Irish Consulate in New York, said the reversal seemed unprecedented in scale.

Some Irish immigrants have always gone back home, of course, and in 2002, after several years of strong economic growth and declining emigration, Ireland's census recorded 26,000 more Irish who returned than left.

It was one of the largest inflows ever in a country that had hemorrhaged its population for most of three centuries, and lost 23,000 as recently as 1990.

But the Irish departures reached critical mass in New York last summer, and were echoed in the last two years in Boston and Philadelphia. "If this trend continues, it will be a very rare commodity to hear an Irish accent in this country," said Tom Conaghan, director of Philadelphia's Irish Immigration and Pastoral Center.

The surge surprised even Danny Moloney, director of Liffey Van Lines, which had to keep its container loading dock in upper Manhattan open 24 hours a day to meet the demand from families shipping their household goods back to Ireland before school began.

"Our business has tripled in the past year," he said. "It's all people that are going home to Ireland." Áine Cullen, a waitress at Eileen's Country Kitchen on McLean Avenue in Yonkers, followed six of her brothers when she migrated to New York seven years ago at 21. Now, most of her family has moved back.

"Everybody's leaving and nobody's coming over anymore," Ms. Cullen said, ticking off colleagues, friends and relatives who packed up and moved back to Ireland over the summer or have bought one-way tickets home before Christmas. "This will be the fourth brother to go."

Some leave reluctantly. "I don't really have much of a choice," said Johnny C., 44, a construction worker who made a good living in New York for 14 years, only to see his jobs dwindle since a Department of Motor Vehicles crackdown this year left him unable to renew his driver's license. He sent his wife and 13-year-old United States-born daughter back to Waterford, Ireland, in June, he said, speaking on condition that his last name not be published, and he will join them this week.

Counselors in immigrant advice bureaus on both sides of the Atlantic say that many returnees will have a rude awakening in Ireland - especially those who were stuck in the underground economy in the United States, unable to travel abroad for fear of not getting back in. The Irish government now puts out brochures warning that they will find not the Ireland of memory, but rather a fast-paced multiracial society where their dollars are weak against the euro and affordable housing scarce.

"The old tradition that you come to America and you work like hell and you save, and you go back and the almighty dollar will give you a kick start - that's all over," Mr. Flannelly said.

But for those who linger illegally in New York, there is another twist in the Irish-American relationship. Now it is they who marvel at visiting Irish friends and relatives who are able to fly to New York for the weekend, just to shop for cheap designer-label goods, or to consider investing in a $300,000 apartment.

"For generations, we Irish have fled oppression and poverty to New York in the hope of a better way of life; now it seems we just want to buy the place," Tim O'Brien wrote in The Irish Times in a Sept. 23 article about "the latest big thing" - "how affordable property is for the Irish investor."

Johnny C., the construction worker, remembers that kind of attitude in the Irish-American visitors of his childhood. "The shoe is really on the other foot now," he said.

In the Woodlawn section of the Bronx, where homes typically change hands through word of mouth, the ripple effects are inescapable. An Irish-American landlord said that half a dozen of his apartments had been vacant since August and that his wife had to close down her home day care business as families moved away.

Siobhan Dennehy, director of the Emerald Isle Immigration Center, in Queens, said others had only been holding out for a fresh approach to immigration after the election. One example was a 40-year-old mother in Woodside, Queens, who began packing last Wednesday after seven years. "The election definitely tipped things for me," she said as she prepared to take her New York-born daughter back to Sligo. "I may as well go home and be part of a society that I can belong to and contribute to. Under Bush, it's never going to happen."

But Anthony Finn, a counselor with the Emigrant Advice Centre in Dublin, said the returnees might find disillusionment, too, in today's Ireland. The most successful, he said, are those who got legal status in the United States; the illegal are caught short in both economies.

On one side is Barry Fox, a carpenter who went from illegal day laborer to American citizen earning a union wage over a dozen years in New York. "I think I'm actually better off," Mr. Fox, a father of three, said in a telephone call from County Tyrone, where he built a home on his father's farmland after returning three years ago.

Weighing the higher cost of parochial school education, health insurance and his mortgage in Yonkers, he said even his $70-an-hour union carpenter's wage in New York fell short of what he earned now.

At the other end is a couple that left Boston for County Cork two years ago, and told Kieran O'Sullivan, a counselor at Boston's Irish Immigration Center, that they now regretted it.

While they were in the United States, prices soared in Ireland, spurred by the high-tech boom known as the Celtic Tiger. But they do not qualify for high-paying work, they said, and service jobs in hotels and restaurants go to the recent wave of immigrants from Asia, Africa and Eastern Europe willing to work harder for lower wages.

"We were only gone for four and a half years, but everything had changed," the wife said in a call from Ireland, asking to remain anonymous in hopes of avoiding a 10-year ban on re-entering the United States, imposed on anyone found to have overstayed a tourist visa by more than 180 days.

Mr. Finn, the emigrant advice officer in Dublin, agreed. "They are not returning," he said of the Irish from America. "They're remigrating to a different country."

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 18:08 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:

Weighing the higher cost of parochial school education, health insurance and his mortgage in Yonkers, he said even his $70-an-hour union carpenter's wage in New York fell short of what he earned now.


Yeah... I feel sorry for the guy... even if he was only working 35 hour weeks, the guy was making $127,000 a year... rough life. I can see why he left

Sikander is offline Sikander
King
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 18:11
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Thank god we've finally found a way to get rid of the Irish!

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 19:51
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Yay weak dollar!!

Asher is offline Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 19:58 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
Yeah... I feel sorry for the guy... even if he was only working 35 hour weeks, the guy was making $127,000 a year... rough life. I can see why he left

To be fair, $100,000 of that likely went to his union.

Sprayber is offline Sprayber

Emperor
Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Thank god we've finally found a way to get rid of the Irish!


Kick all the Irish out. Except those of us that came over before the 1800s

Patroklos is offline Patroklos
Warlord
Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:03
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Yeah, how unfortunate that none tax paying non-citizens can't get benefits for free.

Boo Hoo, the reason we don't want unregistered drivers is because you probobly don't have insurance if your one of them.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:06
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* DinoDoc plays world's smallest violin

Bosh is offline Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:11
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American immigration laws have gotten really insane. I couldn't get my gf a visa to come home and meet my family so she had to get a ticket to Toronto and I have to haul all my family up there to meet her. I can definately sympathize with other people on the recieving end of how the US has cracked down on immigrants since 9/11

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:14
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Poor illegal immigrants.

Arrian is offline Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:15
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Got spare money?

Why wouldn't they give a South Korean a visa? Aren't we allies or something?

-Arrian

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:15 Visit DanS's homepage!
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I'm happy for Ireland and for the immigrants who feel they can move back to the island. They've been kicked around for centuries and it's always good to see people do well. Some of my ancestors came from Ireland around the middle of the 19th century.

The rest of the article is silly, though. If you can't make do with a $70/hour carpentry job, you've got rocks in your head.

Bosh is offline Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Poor illegal immigrants.

Well its been harder and harder to become a legal immigrant. A couple international students in my University had their student visas yanked while they were home for the summer and couldn't attend classes. Situations like those and my gf annoy the hell out of me, and if the ****ing IRISH are having a hard time becomming legal immigrants to the US something is definately wrong.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
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Jul 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Poor illegal immigrants.


Are you really that dense that you think the post-9/11 crackdown has only effected illegal immigrants?

-Arrian

Bosh is offline Bosh
Emperor
Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Why wouldn't they give a South Korean a visa? Aren't we allies or something?

-Arrian

Apparently not I got told by immigration lawyers that if my gf didn't make X amount of money and hadn't had her current job for two years they wouldn't touch her

The Poles also got the shaft visa-wise just this last summer.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:20
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We're such bastards for requiring people to have a valid SS# to have a driver's license.

Arrian is offline Arrian
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Jul 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:22
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Dinodoc,

What are you on about?

-Arrian

Arrian is offline Arrian
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Jul 2001
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  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:23
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Backing up a little bit, Boshko, why does she need a Visa? You said you wanted her to come meet your parents... can't she just come visit for a week or two (normal vacation travel)? That shouldn't require a Visa, should it?

-Arrian

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian


Are you really that dense that you think the post-9/11 crackdown has only effected illegal immigrants?
Considering the fact that is what most of the article is about, I find the pity party going on in this thread more than a little sickening.
quote:
What are you on about?
new security crackdowns that make it harder for those without a valid Social Security number to drive, work or plan a future in the United States.

Arrian is offline Arrian
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Jul 2001
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  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:28
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I'm TALKING ABOUT BOSHKO'S ISSUE. **** the article, we already jacked the thread!

But ok, you're stuck in the past. I understand.



-Arrian

Flubber is offline Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:40
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See-- this article could have been written positively about the Irish success story. Ireland is a great example. Why the heck did they have to write it as some sort of US failure?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
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  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:42
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They wrote it as a Bush Admin failiure. The rest follows from there.

Bosh is offline Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Backing up a little bit, Boshko, why does she need a Visa? You said you wanted her to come meet your parents... can't she just come visit for a week or two (normal vacation travel)? That shouldn't require a Visa, should it?

-Arrian

Nope, for Korean citizens you now need a visa to even set foot in America. She can't even have a layover in an American airport on her way to Toronto (would've saved her money if she could ).

DanS is offline DanS
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Because the New York Times feels like it has to apologize for America. I find such stuff odious.

Arrian is offline Arrian
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  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Boshko

Nope, for Korean citizens you now need a visa to even set foot in America. She can't even have a layover in an American airport on her way to Toronto (would've saved her money if she could ).


Wtf?

Dan,

While the NYT takes it to an extreme, what does it say if we never apologize for anything, ever. We're always right! LALALALALALALA! That's the flip side, which I find odious.

-Arrian

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
Settler
Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:19
  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:48
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You gusy are dense. The point isn't the immigrants or the legality of them.

Them point is that people are leaving the US for IRELAND, possibly the worlds greater wholesale supplier of people... thats a real role reversal. Its also very sad for the US.

DanS is offline DanS
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quote:
While the NYT takes it to an extreme


That's the issue here, not the flipside.

Luckily, the New York Times has a rather limited circulation relative to reputable papers.

quote:
Its also very sad for the US.


Why? I have nothing but happiness for these folks that they can make good in their homeland for the first time in centuries.

Bosh is offline Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian


Wtf?

Dan,

While the NYT takes it to an extreme, what does it say if we never apologize for anything, ever. We're always right! LALALALALALALA! That's the flip side, which I find odious.

-Arrian

Well Koreans are smart and are getting revenge. Huge numbers (there's a big business in travel packages to do this) of pregnant Koreans are travelling to America to have their kids so that their kids will be American citizens (you're an American citizen if you're born there even if your parents aren't and if you were only there for the day that you're born). One of my old adult students got pissed at her husband when he wouldn't pay for her to go to America to have her kid.

Arrian is offline Arrian
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  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:55
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The NYT doesn't exist in a vacuum, Dan. Neither do the publications that spout USA! USA! USA! all the time. They are connected, reacting to (or rather against) one another.

Jimmy,

It might say things about the US, but from what I understand about Ireland, they've really made great strides. I think it is primarily an Irish success story, not an American failure.

The NYT would've been better served to write an article about how we refuse entry to our "allies" in South Korea unless they get a Visa, which apparently requires a college degree and a bundle 'o money. Just to visit.

-Arrian

Arrian is offline Arrian
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  Old Post 10-11-2004 20:56
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Ack, after reading that last post by Boshko, the Visa policy starts making some sense. Looks to me like Koreans have other Koreans to blame for the restrictions, Boshko.

-Arrian

 
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