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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:19
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quote:
Ok -- if the argument can be made that all atrocities are by definition, acts of terrorism, that still does not undermine my position that wiping out Amerindian villages is just as horrid as suicide bombings of public markets. |
Sure, but there is a difference. The people we call "terrorists" like Hamas are the victims of an occupation. It's all very well to tell them that they shouldn't be violent, but you can't condemn their violence and ignore the fact that some bunch of asses invaded their country and have imposed apartheid on them.
If the Israeli public really wanted to do something about it, they could vote in a government that would end the occupation. But they won't, despite Israel being one of the world's most vibrant democracies. The only reasonable conclusion is that a majority of Israelis support the occupation or don't care enough to see it stopped. Hence, they are doing the Palestinians wrong, and are fair game.
If the public doesn't take responsibility in a democracy, who does?
Were the Irish supposed to play nice with the British, after centuries of absolutely disgraceful actions on the part of the latter?
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
quote:
Ok -- if the argument can be made that all atrocities are by definition, acts of terrorism, that still does not undermine my position that wiping out Amerindian villages is just as horrid as suicide bombings of public markets. |
Sure, but there is a difference. The people we call "terrorists" like Hamas are the victims of an occupation. It's all very well to tell them that they shouldn't be violent, but you can't condemn their violence and ignore the fact that some bunch of asses invaded their country and have imposed apartheid on them.
If the Israeli public really wanted to do something about it, they could vote in a government that would end the occupation. But they won't, despite Israel being one of the world's most vibrant democracies. The only reasonable conclusion is that a majority of Israelis support the occupation or don't care enough to see it stopped. Hence, they are doing the Palestinians wrong, and are fair game.
If the public doesn't take responsibility in a democracy, who does?
Were the Irish supposed to play nice with the British, after centuries of absolutely disgraceful actions on the part of the latter? |
Don't misunderstand me. I do not agree with all of Israel's policies.
And I see your point with Ireland -- decolonization in twentieth century in Asia, Africa, and Ireland often had to retort to organized violence.
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johncmcleod
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Coeur d'Alene, ID, USA
Jan 2002
time: 21:19
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Terrorism is better if their is political motive behind it than if there wasn't any-and it is better if the people they are fighting are terrorists themselves-but it still doesn't justify it.
The reason is that terrorism is bad, and if some political ideology is slapped onto it that all of the sudden makes it justified. And that has lead to millions of lives being taken. People will always disagree when it comes to politics, and as long as we have the stance, there will always be war. If we agree to disagree on politics, yet agree avoid war at all possible costs, we will resolve our differences in a reasonable manner without killing each other.
Just about every war and every mass killing has had some sort of ideology behind it. That is why ideas never justify terror. If we continue to believe otherwise, we will continue to fight each other.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it... Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate.... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I call bullshit.  Though thier rehetoric is almost always couched with such niceties as a desire for freedom and a battle for human rights, there is a built in contradiction between the professed goal and the method chosen to implement them. In fact I'd go so far as to say that the methods reveal a totalitarian strain that runs through all terrorist groups today. |
OMG! An actual arguement posted by DD!  I thought those days were past!
States have essentially gotten together and writen the rules about what is acceptable violence and what is not- of course, they wrote it in a way to legitimize where they are strong, and criminilize forms of violence that skirt their strenghts. As technology has improved, the rules get rewriten- the massive bombardment of a city without regards to civilian casualties has gone the way of burning down the city, killing all the males and enslaving everyone else, which once was totally permitted behavior.
Any arguement about Terrorism needs to keep in mind that fact- that is not a judgement, but simply a recitation of reality.
what we call terrorism is political violence by the weak- if Hamas had Tanks, Apaches, F-16 and divisions, they could afford to fight like the Israelis- they could even afford to play by the rules. Of course, they lack all of those things, and having chosen violence as their method for political change, well, that does not leave them much but to act in ways that have been designed as criminal.
As for their aims, and the notion that all "terrorist" groups are totalitarian in nature- a judgement of the avenues open does not equal a judgement of their aim. Obviously nationalist organizations want very different aims from religiously motivated ones.
The question is, can people trully achieve anything in a non-violent manner, or in a violent manner that seeks to play by the state writen rules?
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14-11-2004 12:55
Did you NOT read the post? Even if it was supporting terrorist regimes, I kind of dislike Communism. 
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