14-11-2004 12:38									#121
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No I don't.

But was he one of the greatest Presidents ever? Yes.

	14-11-2004 12:39									#122
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MrFun got over his Lincoln worship!

	14-11-2004 12:41									#123
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I'd hit it.

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	14-11-2004 12:43									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker No I don't. But was he one of the greatest Presidents ever? Yes.

Yes, he was one of the greatest presidents ever. But in the 1850s, he held to the same racist beliefs that most other whites believed in, when dealing with blacks.

I do believe though, that his views of race evolved during the tumultous time period of enormous social changes, in that towards the end of his life, his viewpoints were maturing to more egalitarian principles in regards to race.

But one has to look at the fact that in the 1850s and during the early part of the Civil War, Lincoln was a racist -- even if his views changed away from racism later on. He was not the only politician to have changed his views on race either, as social changes occured during and after the Civil War.

	14-11-2004 12:45									#125
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One also needs to consider the possibility that Lincoln used the issues of slavery (not necessarily race early on) as an anti-Southern plank, in order to further the Republican Party's goal of mass indudstrialization with federal government investement and power.

Some historians have put forth excellent arguments that the anti-Southern approach by the Republican Party was a way for them to gain power of the federal government through the Northern states, so they can promote their own program and interests.

	14-11-2004 12:46									#126
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You are going off on a tangent here. The point about what Lincoln did or did not believe was never brought up.

The fact of the matter remains that the Proclomation had a galvinizing moral effect on the populus no matter which way you look at it.

	14-11-2004 12:48									#127
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And by the way that pic I posted wasn't a shot at you, I was giving you props, but you must have misunderstood.

	14-11-2004 12:48									#128
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	14-11-2004 12:49									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You are going off on a tangent here. The point about what Lincoln did or did not believe was never brought up. The fact of the matter remains that the Proclomation had a galvinizing moral effect on the populus no matter which way you look at it.

I don't follow the rule, "Thou shalt not go on a tangent."

	14-11-2004 12:55									#130
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	14-11-2004 13:08									#131
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I hope they are shaved if they are really so anti-bush. You should offer to check Ted.

	14-11-2004 13:09									#132
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Well, DD if you really want to make sure, you can take a closer look at the right-hand chick's armpit in the picture.

	14-11-2004 13:13									#133
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I hope they are shaved if they are really so anti-bush. You should offer to check Ted.

I will make the sacrifice.

	14-11-2004 13:23									#134
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	14-11-2004 13:29									#136
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	14-11-2004 13:50									#137
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Okay, I can't take credit for these beauts. Totally stolen from the Internets, but:

	14-11-2004 22:05									#138
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I will let you in on a secret . . . . . I'm a history graduate student who specializes in Civil War and Reconstruction.

I was a history major in under grad, and I had 15 credits of Civil War/ Reconstruction history. I decided to go to Law School rather than pursue a graduate degree in history, though. Sometimes I wish I had went for the history degree.

	14-11-2004 22:15									#139
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So are you a lawyer now? Completely done with law school?

	15-11-2004 00:59									#140
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It's mostly dead now, thank God, but I feel obligated to point out additional ways in which that Civil War analogy was stupid:

-The Republican Party (EEEEVIL!) was AGAINST slavery at the time. It effectively was represented by "the blue states." From that perspective the party situation has effectively flipped. The Democrats, or ancestors thereof, were populists who stood for "states' rights," i.e. slave ownership. America just "voted against the party that defended slavery." At least that's how I remember history, correct me if I'm wrong.
-The Civil War was over a century ago. None of those people who supported slavery in 1860 were alive to vote for Bush, even the first time. Honestly.
-If you look only a few decades before that, you see that England was in a war with America. You know that rotten Tony Blair hates us! Nuke London!
-Remind us again how stereotyping people, e.g. "Arabs and Muslims are all terrorists who hate America," is a bad thing?
-We're not quite there yet, but Godwin's Law looms.

And so on. This is absurd. I mean, I dislike Bush too, but people who defend civil liberties should in theory pretend to be "civil" about it. You know, environment of open-mindedness, respect for others' ideas, Voltaire's "I may not agree with what you say..."? And liberals are supposed to be the smart and tolerant party. No wonder the voting public is so apathetic. Bah.

	15-11-2004 01:54									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Elok It's mostly dead now, thank God, but I feel obligated to point out additional ways in which that Civil War analogy was stupid: -The Republican Party (EEEEVIL!) was AGAINST slavery at the time. It effectively was represented by "the blue states." From that perspective the party situation has effectively flipped. The Democrats, or ancestors thereof, were populists who stood for "states' rights," i.e. slave ownership. America just "voted against the party that defended slavery." At least that's how I remember history, correct me if I'm wrong. -The Civil War was over a century ago. None of those people who supported slavery in 1860 were alive to vote for Bush, even the first time. Honestly. -If you look only a few decades before that, you see that England was in a war with America. You know that rotten Tony Blair hates us! Nuke London! -Remind us again how stereotyping people, e.g. "Arabs and Muslims are all terrorists who hate America," is a bad thing? -We're not quite there yet, but Godwin's Law looms. And so on. This is absurd. I mean, I dislike Bush too, but people who defend civil liberties should in theory pretend to be "civil" about it. You know, environment of open-mindedness, respect for others' ideas, Voltaire's "I may not agree with what you say..."? And liberals are supposed to be the smart and tolerant party. No wonder the voting public is so apathetic. Bah.

I see that pic struck a nerve.

It seems the coincidence is too much for people to handle.

	15-11-2004 02:43									#142
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If that were so the Gettysburg Address would have freed all slaves and not just those currently in rebellion. PWND!

You mean the Emancipation Proclamation? The Gettysburg Address freed no one. It was a memorial for a graveyard at Gettysburg.

	15-11-2004 02:46									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You mean the Emancipation Proclamation? The Gettysburg Address freed no one. It was a memorial for a graveyard at Gettysburg.

They already caught him with this mistake.

	15-11-2004 02:47									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Nebraska was a slave state?

Nebraska wasn't a state at all, but after the Dred Scott decision, all of the territories were opened to slavery.

	15-11-2004 02:52									#145
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun They already caught him with this mistake.

I was partying all weekend. I just got back. I catered and got $200.

	15-11-2004 02:53									#146
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I was partying all weekend. I just got back. I catered and got $200.

great -- so when are you mailing me that check?

	15-11-2004 03:09									#147
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	15-11-2004 03:14									#148
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	15-11-2004 03:17									#149
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Asian women for Kerry/Striker '04

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	15-11-2004 03:27									#150
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So are you a lawyer now? Completely done with law school?

No, I'm in my first semester of law school. I'm 22, and I just graduated from undergrad this past May.