16-11-2004 01:20									#91
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quote: Originally posted by muxec When Franklin said that the situation was totally different.

The principle is the same.

quote: Originally posted by muxec 65% of muslims support terrorists. Think about it. We value our lifes high they do not.

Care to actually provide proof of that number?

-Drachasor

	16-11-2004 01:21									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Isn't it US policy to retaliate to attack by WMD's by WMD's, IOW, nukes? (I think it was redone a while back, to allow first strikes with WMD's, tho...)

Oh, right, so if North Korea nuked us we'd go and nuke Japan?

-Drachasor

	16-11-2004 01:25									#93
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quote: Proposing to nuke Mecca is punishing a population that isn't at fault for the crimes of another

USAian tax-payers funded nukes used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hypothetic Al-Qaeda nuke was funded by muslim people.

	16-11-2004 01:37									#94
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I would take such a situation (nuke going off in Chicago) quite personally. Al Qaeda might not be targetting me personally, but they would have destroyed something special to me. In response, I would destroy something special to them. I wouldn't just nuke Mecca without warning. I'd give maybe 48 hours for people to leave. I'm not looking to kill innocents. I'm looking to destroy the symbol of Mecca.

And Drach, there's a reason we have anger. It's a survival trait. Those that get angry kill their enemies. Pacifism is admirable, but in the end, who is going to survive? Those unwilling to take action? Or those willing to take action?

	16-11-2004 01:48									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Oh, right, so if North Korea nuked us we'd go and nuke Japan? -Drachasor

there's quite clearly a big **** difference between the two countries nkorea and japan, whereas it's harder to pinpoint the location of al qaeda and whether or not it's in saudi arabia. nice attempt, but try again.

	16-11-2004 01:50									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I would take such a situation (nuke going off in Chicago) quite personally. Al Qaeda might not be targetting me personally, but they would have destroyed something special to me. In response, I would destroy something special to them. I wouldn't just nuke Mecca without warning. I'd give maybe 48 hours for people to leave. I'm not looking to kill innocents. I'm looking to destroy the symbol of Mecca. And Drach, there's a reason we have anger. It's a survival trait. Those that get angry kill their enemies. Pacifism is admirable, but in the end, who is going to survive? Those unwilling to take action? Or those willing to take action?

I'm not a pacifist and I don't advocate pacifism.* I advocate measures that stop problems though, not make them worse.

Anger was more useful in much, much more primitive times. Now we need to be a lot more careful about how we use it, because it isn't as though we are fully evolved for our current society.

-Drachasor

*Though I am hopeful that one day we will not have wars.

	16-11-2004 01:51									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed there's quite clearly a big **** difference between the two countries nkorea and japan, whereas it's harder to pinpoint the location of al qaeda and whether or not it's in saudi arabia. nice attempt, but try again.

Al Qaeda isn't in Saudi Arabia, it isn't in any one country. It is a state-less operation. Nuking a state and killing civilians is not going to help matters. It is hitting a target that isn't responsible for what happened, but one that is merely loosely connected with it.

-Drachasor

	16-11-2004 01:52									#98
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quote: Al Qaeda isn't in Saudi Arabia, it isn't in any one country. It is a state-less operation

Yeah, now that we took care of Iraq.

	16-11-2004 01:53									#99
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quote: Originally posted by muxec USAian tax-payers funded nukes used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hypothetic Al-Qaeda nuke was funded by muslim people.

By *some* Muslim people, and just like internment camps weren't appropriate in WWII, nuking Mecca isn't appropriate in the war on terror. In fact it is far, far less appropriate.

Additionally, it would make the problem of terrorism worse and more bloody, it wouldn't help solve it.

Is everyone here so bloodthirsty that advocate making a war worse as opposed to better? That they advocate prolonging misery and pain more than necessary?

-Drachasor

	16-11-2004 01:54									#100
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i'm not disagreeing with you there, that attacking a state actor for a non-state actor's actions isn't exactly the best move...

but your point about nuking japan for nkorea's actions, both state actors, is patently ridiculous and farcical, especially when trying to argue against nuking mecca in retaliation.

	16-11-2004 01:55									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Yeah, now that we took care of Iraq.

It was basically unconnected with Iraq; but I guess you don't read any of our intelligence reports, which *ALL* confirm this. The connection idea is a mistaken notion by a non-intelligence person which Wolfowitz latched onto and got the President to start thinking too. It has no basis in reality.

Al Qaeda was more closely connected to Afghanistan (why didn't you say that?), but still was largely nationless. It is especially nationless now.

-Drachasor

	16-11-2004 01:55									#102
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quote: Yeah, now that we took care of Iraq.

I wasn't aware that Al Qaeda was a state actor. Indeed, I wasn't aware that Al Qaeda and the Iraqi leadership were one and the same...

Silly me, I was always under the impression that Al Qaeda, a coalition of terrorist cells, was always a non-state actor... as are virtually all terrorist organizations.

	16-11-2004 01:55									#103
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quote: measures that stop problems though

These mesaures were tried and failed. If USA did not nuke Japan in 1945 Japan would kill millions of own and foreighn soldiers in following monthes of conventional war.

quote: Oh, right, so if North Korea nuked us we'd go and nuke Japan?

Heavy trolling is against apolyton policy. I'll report this poll to You-Know-Who

	16-11-2004 02:10									#104
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quote: Originally posted by muxec Heavy trolling is against apolyton policy. I'll report this poll to You-Know-Who

I think the Japan comment was a legitimate attempt to expose how ridiculous its it to see an attack on an Arab city in response to an Al-Quaedi attack on America as legitimate.

You can't randomly start nuking cities because of the race/religion of the people who live there just because a minority of extremists of that race/religion attack you - other wise why no nuke Japan after a N. Korean attack? Maybe 'East Asian culture' is the cause of north korea's belicosity

	16-11-2004 02:23									#105
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Japher,

Are you actually one of those people who thinks that Al Qaeda was receiving "aid & comfort" from Saddam?

-Arrian

	16-11-2004 02:51									#106
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quote: I think the Japan comment was a legitimate attempt to expose how ridiculous its it to see an attack on an Arab city in response to an Al-Quaedi attack on America as legitimate.

unfortunately, it misses the mark. both nkorea and japan are state actors, whereas al qaeda is not a state actor and saudi arabia is. you're comparing apples and oranges: it'd be like trying to argue that it's perfectly legitimate to nuke paris because of german aggression into poland.

if you want to make an apt comparison on how illogical nuking mecca would be, this is far better: shall we nuke dublin every time a bomb goes off in belfast? should france annihialate madrid every time ETA decides to detonate a bomb in some club in Ibiza?

quote: You can't randomly start nuking cities because of the race/religion of the people who live there just because a minority of extremists of that race/religion attack you - other wise why no nuke Japan after a N. Korean attack? Maybe 'East Asian culture' is the cause of north korea's belicosity

easier to make such comparisons when even the hypothetical targets aren't white like you and me, nee?

some problems with your position:
most people in nkorea are nkoreans. an attack by nkorea would likely be carried out by nkoreans.
the majority of people in japan are not nkorean.
if you really want to get that deep into it, tell a japanese that he's korean at heart. no, even better, tell a korean he's the same race as a japanese person.

ON THE OTHER HAND:
it seems as if a sizeable fraction, perahps even a majority, of the people in al qaeda self-identify as muslims and saudi arabians. the few attacks perpetrated by al qaeda in the us have been dominated by saudi arabian muslims.
the majority of people in mecca are saudi arabian and muslim.

	16-11-2004 03:02									#107
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uh-oh

	16-11-2004 03:32									#108
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just to clarify, i'm not actually white. i am, however, a rice cracker: that is to say, an american of asian extraction born and raised in the south.

i do prefer that terminology to the current standard, which doesn't take into account regional variation: twinkie.

	16-11-2004 03:36									#109
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quote: Japher, Are you actually one of those people who thinks that Al Qaeda was receiving "aid & comfort" from Saddam? -Arrian

And where else do you think AQ got this nuclear weapon?!

	16-11-2004 03:39									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i do prefer that terminology to the current standard, which doesn't take into account regional variation: twinkie.

Isn't Twinkie the Teletubby that make kids gay?

	16-11-2004 03:41									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Japher And where else do you think AQ got this nuclear weapon?!

The Russian mob.

	16-11-2004 03:43									#112
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They probably took one of those a-bombs that the US reported missing

	16-11-2004 03:43									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Japher And where else do you think AQ got this nuclear weapon?!

not from saddam... he wasn't even close to a nuke...

I think by reading how to make a nuclear weapon online... I might be closer to a nuke than Saddam ever was.

	16-11-2004 03:44									#114
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You mean one of the ones the UN said doesn't exist?

	16-11-2004 03:50									#115
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i'd like proof that it's an iraqi nuke. experts the world over are saying saddam wasn't even close...

occam's razor: which answer is simpler, and therefore more likely?
1. saddam and iraq duped the entire known world and fooled virtually every expert into believing that they did not have any weapons of mass destruction, as well as developed a working nuclear device in secrecy. not to mention that iraq, an established state actor, trusts a non-state actor enough with a weapon of great repercussions, when all previous patterns of behavior by every single nation in the world suggests that they distrust and actively try to stamp out non-state actors?
2. al qaeda obtained a nuclear device from an unknown and unsecured source, such as a former soviet republic.

my money's on 2.

	16-11-2004 04:11									#116
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Did you listen to what Sava said? (I know it is hard after conditioning oneself to ignore him)

He doesn't want to kill muslims becuase they destroyed Chigago, he wants to destroy Mecca, the physical city. THAT is important to Al Queda, because they obviously don't care about muslims.

Granted, I would imagine the execution of destroying Mecca but not killing the populous to be impossible, but it is a hypothetical.

So when are we going to to ahead and call this an ideological war and go Eastern Front on these people?

	16-11-2004 04:36									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Did you listen to what Sava said? (I know it is hard after conditioning oneself to ignore him)

I heard what he said and responded. What he proposed would only make things worse, not better.

-Drachasor

	16-11-2004 04:38									#118
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To be fair to Japher, Iraq was within a few years of a Nuke just before the Gulf War, but they never advanced beyond that and the program was ended. They never started it again and would of needed to recreate a lot of work to get back to that point.

-Drachasor

	16-11-2004 04:39									#119
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quote: To be fair to Japher, Iraq was within a few years of a Nuke just before the Gulf War, but they never advanced beyond that and the program was ended. They never started it again and would of needed to recreate a lot of work to get back to that point.

To be fair, Drach, I'm a better troll than monkspider

	16-11-2004 04:57									#120
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Hey, if they nuke Vegas, the religious right will be the ones saying "they deserved it".