17-11-2004 14:55									#91
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Dan S is correct in saying that the Congress is vastly more powerful in setting economic policy than the president. You can disagree with the president and refuse to vote for him just as you can disagree with your congressman. But it isn't in the end his call, the responsibility lies with congress. Just as many of you don't blame the CIA or the defense department for the war in Iraq despite their role in pushing the war / supplying bad intelligence. In the end it was Bush's call and his responsibility.

	17-11-2004 16:37									#92
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I think the oil price is so high because China wants more than before.

I just refilled oil for my house heating furnace - 1000 €/m3 !!!

	17-11-2004 16:40									#93
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Drake - I sure was, and Kerry had resources available to him at that time that are normally unavailable to members of Congress (unless your argument is that all members of Congress have, at all times, access to Federal matching funds and Republican or Democratic party fundraising dollars for presidential campaigns? If that were the case, I'd agree).

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 16:52									#94
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I'm talking about an actual pulpit, Vel. Kerry gave stump speeches in churches for 5 consecutive Sundays before the election. Something to keep in mind when throwing out comments about Bush being a fundamentalist...

	17-11-2004 18:09									#95
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Too true.

On the other hand, Kerry's views on abortion and gay marriages aren't exactly "fundamentalist" in their general bent.

Contrast that with the views on those topics of the extreme right that controls Bush's party, and therefore, plays an enormous role in our dearly beloved Shrub's policy, and I think you will begin to see a few "fundamental" differences, no?

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 18:50									#96
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Well, when it comes to gay marriage I don't see much of a difference between the views of blacks (who vote overwhelmingly Democrat) and those of right-wing Christians. It's pretty easy to blame born-again Christians for all of the policies you don't agree with, but such scapegoating simply isn't borne out by reality. There aren't enough fundamentalist Christians to make policy without support from other segments of the population...

	17-11-2004 19:05									#97
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But there's a key difference between the two groups you mentioned.

One group controls a political party in this country and plays a strong role in defining platform and position for a sitting president.

One group does not.

Guess which is which...

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 19:28									#98
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I think the claims of fundamentalist control of the Republican party are overblown, to say the least. Yes, the Republicans have to throw the religious conservatives a bone every now and then to get them to the polls, but that's not really any different from how the Dems have to pander to the black vote or the fringe left vote. To look at such behavior and conclude that either party is controlled by the fringe members of their base, however, is pretty silly, IMO.

	17-11-2004 19:34									#99
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*shrug* You can call it silly if you wanna. Your party I guess, however, I would contend that Bush has done and has planned far far more than throwing the Fundies an odd bone here and there. Rather, he has a HIGHLY conservative agenda, bought and paid for by influence from the far right, and he stands a really good chance of pushing it through.

This then, is not "blaming" the far right for policy I don't happen to agree with, it's placing responsibility FOR policies which may well be enacted into law exactly where it belongs.

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 19:36									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten To look at such behavior and conclude that either party is controlled by the fringe members of their base, however, is pretty silly, IMO.

But it seems like some people want to continue the liberal insult strategy... Blame everything on the fundies, call everybody stupid, make broad sweaping generalizations that aren't even close to reality... nothing new. The good news is, that strategy didn't work and they lost. Maybe next time they will actually have a real strategy

	17-11-2004 19:37									#101
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G'head, stick your head in the sand, then.

-Arrian

	17-11-2004 19:40									#102
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Let's see....

PATACT 1 & 2

Desire to pack the Supreme Court with highly conservative folk and overturn Roe V. Wade

Creationism taught in science class

Rediculous restrictions on stem cell research

Ban gay marriages

yeah...that's "just a bone here and there" for the far right.

Now all we're missing is a good book burning party and we'll be all set, right?

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 19:52									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Desire to pack the Supreme Court with highly conservative folk and overturn Roe V. Wade

And has this been actually done yet? Save that one for when it actually happens, but I will bet you it won't

quote: Creationism taught in science class

And Bush is involved in this how? These decisions are being made at the local level... and on a very limited basis...

quote: Rediculous restrictions on stem cell research

This one I will agree with you on...

quote: Ban gay marriages

Another, has it happened yet. Like most politicians, he promises people what they want to hear (and a majority of Americans are opposed to it as well)... and we know how politicians keep their promises
I highly doubt anything will come of this on a federal level... and he knows it, and that's why he can say what he wants on the issue, because he will never have to deliver on it.

quote: Now all we're missing is a good book burning party and we'll be all set, right?

Again... just throwing out stuff, implying that it will happen to make yourself sound in the right.

I'm surprised you didn't use the word Nazi in your post

	17-11-2004 19:59									#104
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Been a while since we were on opposite sides of the fence.

Party platform is instrumental in defining policy positions. Would you agree with this?

Platform positions in the Republican party have been heavily influenced by a minority...the christian fundy minority. They have made their desires known, and we've already seen a lot of their desires enacted (I note that PatActs 1&2 were conspicuously absent from your point by point breakdown of my previous).

Lots of erosion and losing ground so far, with more promiesd in the next four years, and based on the first four, it's not an unrealistic expectation.

We've got one supreme court judge really ill, and two very old. If all three are replaced by highly conservative minds (and that is likely), then I'd not bet the farm that Roe v. Wade is safe, and the desire is certainly there.

Nazi is far, far too strong a term, but no, I'll not disguise my disgust for the sitting pres, nor for those on the far right who have his ear.

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 20:11									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Been a while since we were on opposite sides of the fence. Party platform is instrumental in defining policy positions. Would you agree with this?

No... I wouldn't agree... Party platforms are meant for "elections" and nothing else. I'm not surprised that christian minority got their mits on the Republican platform, because frankly, it's a meaning less document.
Candidates don't follow it, and do what they want. And once the elections are over, EVERYBODY ignores it.

quote: (I note that PatActs 1&2 were conspicuously absent from your point by point breakdown of my previous).

Because they have nothing to do with the fundies.
Typical of you to blame everything on the fundies

quote: Lots of erosion and losing ground so far, with more promiesd in the next four years, and based on the first four, it's not an unrealistic expectation.

Whatever... keep prediciting the next coming of Nazi Germany... it's a tact most of the liberals have fallen into these days.

quote: We've got one supreme court judge really ill, and two very old. If all three are replaced by highly conservative minds (and that is likely), then I'd not bet the farm that Roe v. Wade is safe, and the desire is certainly there.

At least you were smart enough to use the word "if"... because that is the opperative word. I personally don't see how a highly conservative will pass muster and actually get in. I expect to see middle of the road judges, because those have a chance of making it through the process.

quote: Nazi is far, far too strong a term, but no, I'll not disguise my disgust for the sitting pres, nor for those on the far right who have his ear.

And I won't disguise my disgust for all the liberal gloom and doom crap that is being continually repeated... just making up stuff... predicting the worse with no basis of support... I'm more than willing to discuss things that are really happening... and show my own displeasure of the Republican party when there is actually a reason to... but lately, all this made up crap is making it difficult to have real discussions... the libs are just using an insult and make up crap strategy...

	17-11-2004 20:16									#106
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quote: PATACT 1 & 2

I don't really see what the Patriot Act has to do with religious conservatives...

quote: Desire to pack the Supreme Court with highly conservative folk and overturn Roe V. Wade

Many Republicans want strict constructionists ("highly conservative folks" to the left) appointed to the Supreme Court. Bush is doing the will of a great many people on this, not just the will of religious conservatives.

quote: Creationism taught in science class

As Ming said, Bush has nothing to do with this.

quote: Rediculous restrictions on stem cell research

Possibly. Then again, Bush could also be appealing to Catholics or people who, while not particularly religious, have moral qualms about using fetal tissue for research . These people aren't part of your fundie conspiracy, are they?

quote: Ban gay marriages

The most Bush has done on this is throw his support behind a federal amendment that was guaranteed to fail. Meanwhile, he's expressed his support for civil unions, much to the dismay of the religious conservatives you claim control him.

quote: yeah...that's "just a bone here and there" for the far right

I'm only counting one possible bone...

	17-11-2004 20:25									#107
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quote: Desire to pack the Supreme Court with highly conservative folk and overturn Roe V. Wade

Within the rules, especially compared to FDR's 1935 plan to reorganize the SC with an additional 6 justices that all would be favorable to his New Deal.

	17-11-2004 20:29									#108
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Sure it's within the rules, but that's not the point. The point is that the fundy right has the ear of the pres. Yes, he has had to back away from a couple of the things they're rabid about (civil union), but by and large, when they say jump, their boy heaves to, and that trend will continue.

PatActs 1&2 are clearly derived from highly conservative thought. Not religious in nature, but then, not EVERY thought by the fundy right is driven by religion (just most of them).

But, if you guys want to wait till the 11th hour to start discussing stuff, that's cool too. Until then, we shall just have to agree to disagree...

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 20:40									#109
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quote: Yes, he has had to back away from a couple of the things they're rabid about (civil union)

Bush didn't have to back away from opposing gay marriage. In fact, he probably hurt himself by saying he supports civil unions. Seems like his true feelings on the matter...

quote: PatActs 1&2 are clearly derived from highly conservative thought. Not religious in nature, but then, not EVERY thought by the fundy right is driven by religion (just most of them).

If that's true, then why have most of the new powers given to American law enforcement by the Patriot Act been in place for decades in Europe (bastion of conservatism that it is)?

	17-11-2004 20:44									#110
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Re: Law Enforcement Powers & Europe

Couple of things: 1) There's a little document called "The Constitution" - I know, I know, it gets in the way of Bush (and formerly Ashcroft's) grand vision, but....it's there, you know? (and delightfully, the current judges on the Supreme Court have undone some of the PatActs).

and 2) Because a lot of us here REJECT the notion of a nanny-state that's been all the rage in Europe for decades. I'm one of those who reject it.

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 20:49									#111
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Respecting the letter of the Constitution is a position normally associated with conservatives in America, as is the rejection of the European "nanny-state" model. I don't see the logic in claiming that the Patriot Act violates the Constitution and moves us closer to a nanny-state, yet at the same time is obviously the result of "conservative" thinking. History would seem to indicate the opposite...

	17-11-2004 21:16									#112
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Ashcroft is *highly* conservative and was the chief cheerleader behind the PatActs, and is typical of the new wind blowing thru the conservative ranks.

Of late, conservativism has assumed the mantle of paranoia and fear-mongering. This, when laced with the fundy fear that someone, somewhere may be thinking impure thoughts, combines to give us a group of right wing zealots who want to know everything about every one, and who seem to delight in the power such control conveys.

But...we'll see. And in the meantime, we can all join hands and sing some "Approved" songs with a suitably religious theme...

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 21:25									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx This, when laced with the fundy fear that someone, somewhere may be thinking impure thoughts, combines to give us a group of right wing zealots who want to know everything about every one, and who seem to delight in the power such control conveys.

Oh PLEASE...

	17-11-2004 21:32									#114
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Hey...I can't help it if the powers behind the republican party make the Puritans of old look like flower children.....take it up with the party bosses!

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 21:34									#115
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Oh, Vel.

	17-11-2004 21:34									#116
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Careful, Vel, you're edging close to the deep end. Disgusted as I am with the current group in power, the old school Puritans were some hardcore nutcases. We joke about "witch hunts" nowadays.

-Arrian

	17-11-2004 21:36									#117
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Yeah, I know....THAT part was in jest...but the basic point remains.

Lately, conservatism is all about control, paranoia and fear mongering. UGH. Who needs that?

-=Vel=-

	17-11-2004 21:40									#118
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The basic point I'm with you on. You know that. But, to paraphrase the promo for Alexander I've heard so many times I think I'll hear it in my sleep: "Velociryx, BE REASONABLE!"

-Arrian

	17-11-2004 21:43									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ming No... I wouldn't agree... Party platforms are meant for "elections" and nothing else. I'm not surprised that christian minority got their mits on the Republican platform, because frankly, it's a meaning less document. Candidates don't follow it, and do what they want. And once the elections are over, EVERYBODY ignores it.

This is untrue. The Party must at least try to uphold the vast majority of their platform or they won't get re-elected. It is one thing to exagerate here and there, but another to create an entirely baseless platform that has little to do with what you actual do. The political fallout would be massive.

Party Platforms *do* represent roughly where the Party plans on going, your cynicism aside.

-Drachasor

	17-11-2004 21:45									#120
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Reasonable people are all too hard to find these days...