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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by dmd175
Dominae did a good job standardizing the games, but I think the build queues should be as much as possible identical save for switching granary and settler. While settler first goes settler--> worker --> granary --> settler, granary first goes warrior--> granary --> settler---> settler.
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Not producing a Warrior right away is essential to the Settler-first strategy, where the idea is to get fresh water to all the bonus Food tiles ASAP. With all the Wheat around we know Constaniople can grow fast enough, the question is where to get the Shields from. My solution was to chop the Game Forest right away, although there is probably a more efficient method. Throwing a Warrior in there is 10 Shields that simply cannot be spared.
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It appears to me that the differences between the two tests (summed up as granary first has a larger economy quicker vs. settler first which has a slightly smaller economy but a higher rate of growth) are explained by the lack of workers and the lack of workers built, which is a function of the granary first queue. Instead, the granary first queue should be modified to build workers on par with settler first, so that we can extrapolate and isolate the effect not of order and intensity of build queues, but the effect of larger capital early/increased production later vs. more cities earlier.
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Nice analysis, although I would argue that it's not just about the Workers, but about the relative speeds at which Granary-first and Settler-first manage to "supersize" (irrigate) all the bonus Food resources. This, of course, is a function of Workers (which is in turn a function of Food!), but also a function of when and where the second city is placed.
Last edited by Dominae on 29-11-2004 at 04:15
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by punkbass2000
To begin with, I hope you're not offended by my (minor) criticism of your methodology.
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Nope. 
quote:
Beyond the fact that our tests will be far from conclusive given the many random factora in any civ game, I think it would have been slightly better to start from the ten-turn save to keep variable to a minimum (I think ideal for this comparison would be to continnue from the turn before the first settler would complete, and switching that to granary for the 'granary-first' scenario.)
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As I justed posted above in response to dmd, not producing a Warrior first is critical to the Settler-first strategy. It's not, however, so critical to the Granary-first strategy. You can build the Warrior right away and complete the Granary at size 2.8, or you build the Warrior after you're done the Granary, at size 2.6. Or you can just not build it at all and be ready to go with Settlers at size 2.6. But in this last case I believe you will find that Constantinople needs to grow a bit before becoming a 5 or 6-turn pump, meaning it needs to kill some time by building stuff that costs Shields but not Pop, i.e., Warriors or Curraghs.
From a wider perspective, let me just say that it is not possible to control for all the variables in each game and remain efficient. The Settler-first game provides more Food early on, which allows the efficient production of more Workers. The Granary-first game is more Shield-intensive early on, and therefore is best applied by building some scouting-type units. To standardize their queues except for the timing of the Settler/Granary is not being fair to one or the other. In my tests I tried to be as efficient as possible with each strategy, given their inherent constraints. As Krill mentioned above, I could have been a bit more "fair" by building a Worker after the Granary in Granary-first, but I chose not to do this because I wanted to follow the sequence you posted.
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I have quibbles here, but they're not your fault. I should have made myself more clear in my original dissection (the part you quoted and based the queue on). As you have seen in my run, I would not actually build two settlers immediately after the granary, I was just saying for the sake of argument that I could build a granary and two settlers in the same time it would take to build two settlers.
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Yes, but as we can see there are factors which your analysis does not take into account and which undercut your conclusion. Instead of explaining this theoretically I decided to play the two alternatives out to demonstrate it.
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Also, I presumed Adrianople was to be founded at 699 (which I still prefer, BTW).
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In the long run, yes, that site may be preferable. But for a stronger opening it's clear to me that 69 is just better; it gets Food to all the necessary places faster. Had I gone with your city placement the results would have been much more skewed.
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I had thought that warriors, etc. wouldn't matter for the purposes of this study, as we're primarily counting food, but workers can be a real wildcard here.
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Exactly. And you need a lot of Food to produce those Workers and Settlers at the same time, and, while Granaries do provide Food, irrigation of bonus Food provides Food too. And you can only irrigate all those bonus Foods with Workers.
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Anyway, for a "fair" comparison between the two I think you'd need to produce two settlers ASAP in 'settler-first' which would be sub-optimal and thus unfair anyway.
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I'm not really seeing this. One strategy involves building a Settler ASAP, then playing the rest of the game as efficiently as possible. The other strategy involves building a Granary first instead (with whatever you want to build before it, if anything), then playing the rest of the game as efficiently as possible. Again, trying to make the games as similar as possible, save the Settler/Granary priority, is forcing one alternative into being suboptimal.
Last edited by Dominae on 29-11-2004 at 09:16
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Dominae
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By the way, thanks all for the discussion.
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dmd175
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Culturally linked starting location.
Oct 2003
time: 00:20
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1750 BC (end of turn): Adrianople changed from hill to desert to get +2 trade (since only need 1 shield for granary).
1725 BC: Adrianople to build settler. Existing settler to Const 332. Slave to build mine. Scouting S elite warrior destroys barb camp, no damage. Const requires lux to 10%; will grow and kick out next settler in 4 turns. Worker moves S of game to road, then mine, BG.
1700 BC: Varna founded at Const 332, set to warrior. Scouting S warrior E to mtn - sees Arab borders far to his east, across a channel; Arab homeland likely on land connected to us, south of Constantinople. Workers sent to Const 77 and Adrianople 9.
Just noticed that Myst was not sold to Hittites as reported, since Hittites still need Masonry, Mysticism. Ott has IW, no deal. Arabs are even. Sold mysticism as previously written for all 50 hittite gold.
1675 BC: WTF?? Ottomans develop writing, but the Hittites now have IW, Writing, and 160 gold. The only thing I can figure is that the Hittites are in communication with another tribe and they made some nice trades (?). Both Hit/Ott want 140gold + >2gpt for either IW or writing. They can pound sand. We'll pound them later. Anyway, Hit would take 2gpt+123 for IW while Ott let it slide for 2gpt+118, so I bought it from Ott. I know our plan was to beeline for philosophy, and I'm well aware of the economics of "sunk costs", but 7 turns to writing vs. 50 to IW...so I bought IW. Only iron seen on entire revealed world is near Edrine(Ottoman) 477. No iron for our (easy) taking. 
All workers build road. Warrior NE. Some Const shields switched to ocean for extra trade.
1650 BC: Mecca completes oracle. Barb appears at Const 77 next to our worker and at the site I plan for next city  . Have to pull Const warrior and so Const will build warrior.
Curragh out and S. We should probably build a city at the neck of the isthmus S of Const so ships can pass through it (either Const 222, 2222, 2221).
Lux to 20% for Adrianople rioters.
1625 BC: Warrior 77 of Const holds and Settler to 777. Scouting warrior N, notes two silks in Ottoman territory. Varna worker to mine.
1600 BC: Smyrna founded 777 Const, building warrior for explore. Worker 9 Adrianople to irrigate. Worker by Smyrna to link up horse. Const makes warrior, actually moved to Adrianople for MP. Adrianople to work desert, forest, mine to get out settler quicker.
Umm, Arabs and Ott now have poly. Nothing to trade for these. Arabs must have traded with Ott for IW and I did not have a chance to intervene as Arabs did not have poly last turn.
1575 BC: Arabs now to build TOA. Adrianople dying of flood plain disease. Now lux to 10% and warrior back to Const. Varna warrior S for scout; Varna build worker. Warrior to SE hill, sees spice 122 Varna. Thus even though it will be a bad short term jungle city, Const 2222 gives us a "canal" and spice.
Curragh sees iron in arabic territory to our SW.
1550 BC: Slave 3 of Const to mine. Warrior further south in jungle. W Warrior reaches istanbul.
1525: Warrior moving south in jungle, sees second spice. W warrior sees barb pillage hill road 3 of istanbul. There is also an arabic warrior 8 of istanbul.
1500 BC: Writing learned; switch to phil. Const culture expands. Const builds settler.
Gave game to Adrianople.Warriors continue to expand (NNW of const there is a fish, jungle warrior SW to attack barb, wins no damage, sees third spice). Curragh sees ivory in Arabic territory.
Smyrna worker linked horse, now to sugar for road since Smyrna using that tile. Adrianople worker E on flood plain for road to Niceae.territory (baghdad).
both ott/arab want 10gpt+105 for poly. tech even with hittites.
What to do with our settler? Take him West to block Ottoman? Or South to block Arabia who have left some land between us? If we take the NE most spice jungle, we can eventually get the whale. If you look at the land between us and Arabia, it looks like they have not gotten as close to us as have the Ottomans. thus this settler will go west, and the next will go south.I've sent him toward the square N of the wheat near the ottomans, but next emperor feel free to change his course (he is in smyrna now).
Also, feel free to change any build orders, esp smyrna,
varna, caesarea, etc.
1500 BC summary: Our relative position in power and score charts is improving (from 3rd to 2nd) (but mainly reflections of founding two new cities). We are #1 in pop (234k-->390k), (GNP 16M-->27M), Mfg (12-->16M), productivity (34-->55), and average income (2-->4). Approval 55-->60 and land area 4300-->6000.
Unfortunately, compared to some of the test runs in the thread, it seems we are way, way behind (ie someone got philosophy at 1350, where we just started it at 1500 BC, and quickest we can get it is about 23 turns). Is the plan to still go at 50 turn pace? Does it make any sense given AI first to writing? I was not able to trade writing for anything since we were last to it. If someone could explain a bit more the rationale of the 50 turn writing I'd appreciate it.
 Attachment: 15.jpg
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dmd175
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Culturally linked starting location.
Oct 2003
time: 00:20
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sacred save
 Attachment: tsg1500bctopb.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
In the long run, yes, that site may be preferable. But for a stronger opening it's clear to me that 69 is just better; it gets Food to all the necessary places faster. Had I gone with your city placement the results would have been much more skewed. |
I don't follow. How does 69 speed up your start, aside from being founded one turn earlier? It still requires one tile to be irrigated before the game.
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I'm not really seeing this. One strategy involves building a Settler ASAP, then playing the rest of the game as efficiently as possible. The other strategy involves building a Granary first instead (with whatever you want to build before it, if anything), then playing the rest of the game as efficiently as possible. Again, trying to make the games as similar as possible, save the Settler/Granary priority, is forcing one alternative into being suboptimal. |
Again, this was a simple error on my part. I misunderstood your comparison, I thought you were following my first ten moves, which is why I think our tests have failed.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dmd175
Just noticed that Myst was not sold to Hittites as reported, since Hittites still need Masonry, Mysticism. Ott has IW, no deal. Arabs are even. Sold mysticism as previously written for all 50 hittite gold. |
Just curious, where was Myst. sold to the Hittites? I looked back a bit and only used ctrl-F, as the pages are so long, but could't find it.
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1675 BC: WTF?? Ottomans develop writing, but the Hittites now have IW, Writing, and 160 gold. The only thing I can figure is that the Hittites are in communication with another tribe and they made some nice trades (?). Both Hit/Ott want 140gold + >2gpt for either IW or writing. They can pound sand. We'll pound them later. Anyway, Hit would take 2gpt+123 for IW while Ott let it slide for 2gpt+118, so I bought it from Ott. I know our plan was to beeline for philosophy, and I'm well aware of the economics of "sunk costs", but 7 turns to writing vs. 50 to IW...so I bought IW. Only iron seen on entire revealed world is near Edrine(Ottoman) 477. No iron for our (easy) taking. |
It's reasonably likely they popped a tech from a hut.
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All workers build road. Warrior NE. Some Const shields switched to ocean for extra trade.
1650 BC: Mecca completes oracle. Barb appears at Const 77 next to our worker and at the site I plan for next city . Have to pull Const warrior and so Const will build warrior.
Curragh out and S. We should probably build a city at the neck of the isthmus S of Const so ships can pass through it (either Const 222, 2222, 2221).
Lux to 20% for Adrianople rioters.
1625 BC: Warrior 77 of Const holds and Settler to 777. Scouting warrior N, notes two silks in Ottoman territory. Varna worker to mine.
1600 BC: Smyrna founded 777 Const, building warrior for explore. Worker 9 Adrianople to irrigate. Worker by Smyrna to link up horse. Const makes warrior, actually moved to Adrianople for MP. Adrianople to work desert, forest, mine to get out settler quicker.
Umm, Arabs and Ott now have poly. Nothing to trade for these. Arabs must have traded with Ott for IW and I did not have a chance to intervene as Arabs did not have poly last turn.
1575 BC: Arabs now to build TOA. Adrianople dying of flood plain disease. Now lux to 10% and warrior back to Const. Varna warrior S for scout; Varna build worker. Warrior to SE hill, sees spice 122 Varna. Thus even though it will be a bad short term jungle city, Const 2222 gives us a "canal" and spice.
Curragh sees iron in arabic territory to our SW.
1550 BC: Slave 3 of Const to mine. Warrior further south in jungle. W Warrior reaches istanbul.
1525: Warrior moving south in jungle, sees second spice. W warrior sees barb pillage hill road 3 of istanbul. There is also an arabic warrior 8 of istanbul.
1500 BC: Writing learned; switch to phil. Const culture expands. Const builds settler.
Gave game to Adrianople.Warriors continue to expand (NNW of const there is a fish, jungle warrior SW to attack barb, wins no damage, sees third spice). Curragh sees ivory in Arabic territory.
Smyrna worker linked horse, now to sugar for road since Smyrna using that tile. Adrianople worker E on flood plain for road to Niceae.territory (baghdad).
both ott/arab want 10gpt+105 for poly. tech even with hittites.
What to do with our settler? Take him West to block Ottoman? Or South to block Arabia who have left some land between us? If we take the NE most spice jungle, we can eventually get the whale. If you look at the land between us and Arabia, it looks like they have not gotten as close to us as have the Ottomans. thus this settler will go west, and the next will go south.I've sent him toward the square N of the wheat near the ottomans, but next emperor feel free to change his course (he is in smyrna now).
Also, feel free to change any build orders, esp smyrna,
varna, caesarea, etc.
1500 BC summary: Our relative position in power and score charts is improving (from 3rd to 2nd) (but mainly reflections of founding two new cities). We are #1 in pop (234k-->390k), (GNP 16M-->27M), Mfg (12-->16M), productivity (34-->55), and average income (2-->4). Approval 55-->60 and land area 4300-->6000.
Unfortunately, compared to some of the test runs in the thread, it seems we are way, way behind (ie someone got philosophy at 1350, where we just started it at 1500 BC, and quickest we can get it is about 23 turns). Is the plan to still go at 50 turn pace? Does it make any sense given AI first to writing? I was not able to trade writing for anything since we were last to it. If someone could explain a bit more the rationale of the 50 turn writing I'd appreciate it. |
Well, no, I wouldn't go 50-turn for Phil. at this point. The rationale of 50-turn Writing centers around a couple things. For one thing, when we first started on WRiting, even at max it would have take ~40 turns, which isn't a huge gain, and this would be further amplified if we had started on it right away rather than getting Pottery first. Also, remember this is not "optimal" for Monarch, as "optimal" Monarch play would be to do your own research, especially given all the food at our disposal, or empire will f\grow fast enough to take the tech lead anyway (as you saw occurred rather quickly in my granary-first trial). However, one cannot always depend on the luxuries of food, as it may not be there. If you play random starts and don't restart, often your first few cities can only produce 2fpt for a long time. Another reason is that I simply don't want to be the tech leader so quickly, we're supposed to be climbing out of a hole and learning to deal with not being number one. Perhaps I should have ran an Emperor game with Monarch and below players, as discussion etc. probably makes the game go a little too well. IMO, if one is playing at the 'appropriate' level for their skill, things should be turning around for the human player around the end of the MA at the earliest. Beyond that, I was hoping to be able to get Writing first with plenty of gold (also a reason to go no-research) while lacking IW, Poly. and possibly other techs that the AI would have to show how best to trade when has the advantage of having monopoly on a tech. This is a tried and true strategy, and as well as Writing, Printing Press is often a great tech to research in the MA and is often one of the key turnarounds that brings about the human's domination in the beginning of the IA. I'll try to find my AU 601 DAR, as in it I applied this strategy to about as great an advantage as I ever do. I saw that only Egypt had PP, and they also had Edu. and Chiv. and probably Inv. (at least), while I had only he first tier in the MA + Theo. A couple other civs had Edu., most civs had Inv. and they pretty well all had Chiv. I researched PP quickly and traded it for Edu., Edu. for Inv. and Inv. for Chiv. + various amounts of gold and probably sold for just gold to a bunch of civs, IIRC. Five techs for the price of one is not a bad deal and gave me tech parity (or superiority) with all but Egypt.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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Here's the DAR and here's a quote
quote:
I checked around after getting theo. + eng. from the Carths, and was able to get inv. but no other techs. I noted that only the Egyptians had PP, while 2-3 civs had edu., most had gunpowder and everyone had chivalry, so I researched PP as fast as possible without a deficit (6-7 turns), then traded it around for the three above techs + a bit of gold. I then was able to see that nearly everyone has chem., while the Egyptians have that, astro. and MT, so I'm now researching Banking with an ETA of 6 turns. |
So yeah, I was a little off in my memory, but the point is the same, and I used Banking in this case in a similar way as well.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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Sorry, gotta go to work and won't be back for ~11 hours, here's 5 turns, the save and notes.
1500BC Switch Adrianople from forest to roaded incense desert for extra trade.
Constantinople switched to worker.
Science set to 100.
Phil in twenty turns (Go big or go home )
1475BC Smyrna completes warrior, set to worker.
New Warrior (Grog henceforth) goes to Constantinople.
Warrior in Const. (Biggus Dickus henceforth) to Adrian.
Settler W towards dmd's intended location.
Worker (henceforth Worker1) beside Smyrna set to road.
Worker2 N of Varna into jungle S of slave.
Worker3 E of Adrian. road.
Northern Warrior (Joe) W.
Elite Warrior (Special Forces) was transported to 366 from Istanbul and now goes N
Southern WArrior (Saffron) goes S, discovers Hittite warrior.
Curragh (Magellan) 121. Medina discovered.
Const. + Adrian MM'ed for one turn growth in Const.
1450BC Const. grows and completes Worker4, set to Settler in six turns and growth in two.
Adrian completes Settler and switches to worker in 5 and growth in 3.
Worker4 NW.
Varna completes Worker5, helps slave cut mining to 3 turns from 9. arna set to barracks.
GRog to Ceasaraea.
Biggus Dickus to Const.
Settler to 126 of Adrian (scout in the way of 32).
Joe S.
Western Settler W.
Saffron W.
Special Forces E.
Magellan 222.
1425BC Grog fortifies.
Slave NE of Ceas. (Otto) 99. Biggus Dickus fortifies.
Worker 4 begins Irrigation.
Worker2 begins road.
Joe W.
Western Settler W.
Special Forces E.
Saffron S.
Settler founds Heraclea 32 from Adrian, set to worker/growth 10.
Magellan 322, spots Najran and a hut on the isle in the SW.
Special Forces E.
Grog to Const.
Otto cuts Irrigation to two turns.
Worker1 to forest.
Joe S.
W Settler W to city site.
Saffron SW.
Worker3 NE.
Magellan 228.
1400BC Ceas. completes Settler, set to worker.
Special Forces to Const.
Trebizond founded, set to worker in 10, growth in seven
Joe S.
Worker3 starts road.
Magellan 869.
Ceas Settler W.
Worker1 chops.
GRog to Adrian.
Slave W or Varna (Hitt) and Worker5 s to jungle for fun and games.
Saffron S.
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Dominae
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(I apologize for the contiuned semi-threadjack!)
quote:
Originally posted by punkbass2000
I don't follow. How does 69 speed up your start, aside from being founded one turn earlier? It still requires one tile to be irrigated before the game.
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First, being founded one turn earlier is not unimportant in the early-game.
Second, by putting a city on the Desert, I irrigate a tile that I need to irrigate but that I do not plan on using, which is highly convenient in terms of Worker-turns. As you point out I still need to irrigate a tile, but I irrigate a Flood Plains, which can be put to immediate good use as a 3F/2C for Adrianople. You, on the other hand, need to irrigate a Desert tile, which I doubt you will use (only 1F...) before turn 80 or so.
Third, by having Adrianople only 2.5 tiles away from my capital, I ensure that it will suffer the least amount of Corrpution among all my core cities. This is important to keep Adrianople as small as possible but still capable of producing 2-turn Workers. In my city placement, I have a couple of cities as distance 3, less then where you have Adrianople at 3.5. I believe this means Adrianople would lose its fourth Shield to Corruption instead of its fifth. Again, a big deal for a pump city.
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Again, this was a simple error on my part. I misunderstood your comparison, I thought you were following my first ten moves, which is why I think our tests have failed. |
Why have they failed?
(Edit: I may have misunderstood the quote above. Are you saying that you only claimed that Granary-first was better than Settler-first given your chosen first ten moves of the game? If so, I agree, and please disregard the rest of this post.)
"Settler-first": Build a second city as quickly as possible in order to make most efficient use of bonus Food resources. Two cities and bonus Food means more Workers early on, which in turn means faster irrigation of bonus Food resources. It is critical for this strategy to work that, in the first few turns, Constantinople work the Wheat tiles and the Worker do a Chop Forest on the Game tile.
"Granary-first": Build a Granary as quickly as possible in order to maximize its Food-generating effect from each growth in Pop. It is critical for this strategy that, in the first few turns, Constantinople obtain high Shield production, which means leaving the Game Forest alone (for now) and having the Worker mine a Bonus Grassland.
The point of this whole discussion is to determine which of these two strategies, if perfectly executed with superb micromanagement and smart higher-level decisions, results in a stronger position later on in the game (at turn 40, or at Philosophy). There is nothing that Settler-first did in my tests that is so much more efficient than Granary-first, apart from building a Settler first. From my results, I feel confident in claiming that Settler-first is at least as good as Granary-first. I am happy with leaving it at that.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by punkbass2000
Yeah, I just realized that Dom didn't build any warriors, including the one I built immediately. I think this seriously throws off the results. I started from turn 10 on my granary-first run and there's no really good way to build a settler at that point. Assuming that granary-first doesn't *need* a warrior (and I can't see why it would, at least vs. settler-first), to compare to what I've already done will either probably make settler-first look worse than it should and Dom's way makes settler-first look better than it should. So much for trying to eliminate individual bias  I wonder if this is largely a result of me generally believing in granary-first and thus knowing the "optimal" strats with it, while Dom is more familiar with settler-first. I suppose we could try to compare my granary-first to Dom's settler-first, though that still runs into some problems, it could be interesting. I'm interested to know what contacts you had in 2110BC Dom, and when you acquired them w/o warriors. Same for huts, as well as overall exploration. |
Sorry to quote myself.
I'm still quite interested to see how your 'settler-first' turns out, when do you get Phil.? Also, how does expansion and exploration go? I actually have a whole slew of questions for you I'm realizing. Pop quiz? 
EDIT: Good point about irrigating the FP, BTW. I do agree the other two are important, but not to the same degree.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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Had time this morning, Here's the next 5 and save:
1350BC We can build the FP if we're so inclined.
Otto and Worker4 begin road.
Grog to Const.
Tax rate to 0.9.1
Hitt and Worker5 help out Worker2 with road.
W Settler W.
Joe S.
Smyrna builds Worker6, begins barracks.
Worker6 SE and irrigates.
Saffron S.
Magellan 993 (Oops, slight miss hit, shoulda been 963).
Special Forces fortifies.
1325BC Const. completes Settler, set to another settler.
Adrian. completes Worker7, set to another worker.
Worker7 N.
Both Arabs and Hittites have warriors beside worker stacks and empty cities so
Grog to Ceas.
and Settler + Special Forces 222.
Also, renegotiate peace with both, 40 gold from Arabs to renew and 60 from Hittites. Decide this seems to be getting profitable and call up Ottos for 100. There seems to be a very specific amount they're all willing to pay, interestingly enough. This I didn't know. Actually, looking at the powergraph now, we're double any of them, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by their capitulation.
Joe S.
W Settler SW.
Saffron W.
Magellan 369.
Tax back to 0.10.0
1300BC Arabs declare war anyway. This brings up a good point. When a few enemy units suddenly move towards undefended cities/units, they may simply have had a random decision to attack and won't turn back, regardless. In later stages of the game you can gain gold with gpt by reacting properly to his behaviour. In hindsight I wish I'd lowered the science briefly and offered gpt to the Hitts and Arabs for additional gold. Oh well.
Arab warrior beside Ceasarea attacks and loses to Grog, doing only one hp of damage. No promotion, though
Other Arab warrior SW of Special Forces runs away in fear upon sight of the elite forces, morale broken upon word of the failed siege of Caesarea. (S is his only option, aside from N.)]
Grog fortifies.
Joe E.
W Settler founds Chaceldon, set to worker. We've sufficiently blocked the Ottos, for now, I feel, and with a couple units I can probably keep them from settling in our desert for a bit, without having to 'sacrifice' settlers there yet. Can now concentrate on blocking Arabs/Hitts to E and S.
Special Forces + Settler SW.
Worker4 NW and irrigates.
Otto 232.
Worker stack clearing jungle.
Worker7 irrigates FP.
Worker3 irrigates different FP. Saffron S, finds Arab Settler/Spearman team. in the E.
Magellan 989. Most of Arab capital territory visible.
1275 Smyrna gains 10 shields from forest.
Arab warrior runs away SW.
Arab team N out of sight.
Ceas. trains Worker8.
Ceas. begins granary.
Joe E.
Worker1 begins mine.
Worker4/6 78.
Otto S, begins clearing.
SF + Settler S.
Saffron S, discovers Damascus. This may cause any stacks the Arabs have going towards to start heading this way.
Magellan 888.
1250BC Hitt warrior NW.
Magellan 889, Arab team 41 from Magellan.
Saffron S.
Settler E.
SF NE.
Worker8 roads.
Grog 662.
Joe to Const. for MP, fortifies.
Worker 4/6 irrigate.
Science dropped to 90%, still 7 turns, gains 1gpt.
1st in every demographic that matters, except Military Service.
Here's the known world:
Attachment: tsg1250bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 73 time(s).
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dmd175
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Culturally linked starting location.
Oct 2003
time: 00:20
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PB: I've seen some similar behavior with AI attacks and tried to get peace, sometimes to exploit $ and sometimes in the hopes of averting an attack. From my experience too it seems like the AI decides (randomly) to attack and there is nothing to turn it back, but is this proven part of how AI thinks?
About the FP, if this were my game I would probably wait to drop it in some big mass of new, hopefully conquered land. OTOH we are basically losing $ to corruption, so how do you guys work the FP on emp+ levels and what are we going to do here.
Also, PB, can we have the save posted?
Thanks, dave
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dmd175
PB: I've seen some similar behavior with AI attacks and tried to get peace, sometimes to exploit $ and sometimes in the hopes of averting an attack. From my experience too it seems like the AI decides (randomly) to attack and there is nothing to turn it back, but is this proven part of how AI thinks? |
I don't know that it's proven, but I've seen others claim so and do believe it happens at least sometimes. They lost nothing this time, but I've seen them give up lots of gpt and even luxuries like this before despite (like this time) being far lower in power and even polite/gracious (though the Arabs were annoyed today).
quote:
About the FP, if this were my game I would probably wait to drop it in some big mass of new, hopefully conquered land. OTOH we are basically losing $ to corruption, so how do you guys work the FP on emp+ levels and what are we going to do here. |
Well, there's a good and unusually active thread in Strategy Forum about the FP and potential uselessness of it. Anyway, the FP has been drastically nerfed in C3C 1.22, as I gather you're largely unaware, as it does not create a 'second core' like it used to. It no longer acts as a second palace for OCN, it only affects distance corruption and increases your overall OCN like 20%.
quote:
Also, PB, can we have the save posted?
Thanks, dave |
 little absent minded in my old age now.
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dmd175
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Culturally linked starting location.
Oct 2003
time: 00:20
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Modo, are you going to play this next 10 turns or should I?
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dmd175
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Culturally linked starting location.
Oct 2003
time: 00:20
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1250 BC (end of turn): Adrianople changed from desert to hill to kick out worker in one less turn (and +1gpt). Arabs move warrior N to meet Saffron. Arab spear/settler visible 8888 Damascus.
1225 BC: Sardica founded. Constantinople MM forest--> ocean (did not need extra shields to build settler).
Worker 9 E (maybe we can trade away an incense). Adrianople to settler.
Special Forces SW. Saffron...what to do with you...maybe we can run and pillage Arabia. Saffron NW.
Magellan 68.
1200 BC: Hittites building Pyramids (ummm, guys, you have like 4 cities!...but we'll be happy to conquer it later for you).
Workers 4679 all roading. Worker3 SW for irrigation. Worker2 moved S to start road to Sardica and spices.
Saffron sick of Arabic warrior. SE, kills him, -2 hp but promoted. Special Forces SW.
Magellan 69.
Constantinople settler: Ottos blocked, war w/ Arabs, so 998 Adrianople to block Hitts.
1175:
Heraclea worker10 SW to road (build barracks). Worker8 SW to road to Chalcedon. Worker2 road.
Saffron W. Special forces SW.
Magellan 978
1150 BC: Ottomans building TOA.
Worker10 road. Worker 4 SE. Worker 6 24. Worker 8 road.
Magellan 69.
Special Forces W. Saffron N.
1125 BC: Naissus founded (warrior).
Trebizond worker 11, Treb builds warrior. Worker11 S to road wheat.
Workers 146 road. Worker 7 E, 9 98, both toward Naissus.
Mag 69.
Saffron rests. Special Forces asks for Arabia's surrender. They spurn him. He was not happy.
He asked permission to attack, an elite warrior vs. regular spear. I consider it...consider it...and bid him good luck. Oooh...two hp lost. Wait, we hit the spear for two. He retaliates, but then Special Forces strikes the fatal blow. Justinian emerges from the rubble of Kufah to lead our people
Attachment: special,jpg.jpg
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).
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dmd175
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Culturally linked starting location.
Oct 2003
time: 00:20
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Now the Arabs will talk. We can get either Poly OR the city of Najran...this city is at the far corner of Arabia and would be tough for us to defend. I'll wait until next turn and see if Saffron can do some damage and try to get us more reparations.
What to do with Justinian? Army or FP? I usually build army, with the hopes that it will pay off via heroic epic with more leaders sooner.
Justinian 999.
1100 BC: Drop sci to 20% for +27 gpt and philo in 1 turn.
Const settler to Smyrna 988.
Worker 7,9,11 road. Worker 3 99.
Saffron NW. SF rests. Justinian NE.
Mag 69.
1075BC:
Philo researched. Normally I would take literature without hesitation. But I thought here have not yet built temples, let alone libraries. We are going to be warring soon with possibly all three of our neighbors, and we are seafaring. Furthermore, mapmaking is the most expensive tech available. In doing something I have pretty sure never done before with the free philo tech, I chose mapmaking and await your comments.
Sci back to 80% for literature in 8 turns.
Philo to Otto for Poly+121 gold. Poly to Hitt for 73 gold.
Saffron E for another Arabic warrior kill (no lost hp). SF rest.
Worker 10 SE. Worker 3 road. Worker 8 47.
Justinian 9. Mag 699.
Varna barracks, set to harbor, as is heraclea.
1050 BC: Barb spotted 87 from settler. Halted. Bring Dickus from Const, which is now 2/1/2
happy, content,unhappy.
Worker 8, 10 roads. Worker 12 E to mine. 4 irrigate, 6 mine. 1 SW.
Justinian 8. Mag. 978.
Saffron rest. SF S to hill, spots another Arab spear settler.
1025 BC: Const +1 entertainer.
Worker 7,9,11 irrigate. 1 Road.
Mag 98.
Saffron rest, Dickus N, SF stays.
1000 BC:
Dickus survives and protects settler. Settler and Dickus north. Naissus Mercenary fortifies.
Mag 977.
Saffron E to Damascus. Special Forces kills spear, captures settler = Damn Sam and Baghdad Bob, both of whom go N to meet their death and doom at the gates of some city. Arabs still only give Najran.
Const settler to Sardica 411; Grog to clear the way.
Justinian left to your discretion. I think I would given another turn build army and use it for heroic epic. OTOH, I did read about how watered down the FP is and since its location really does not matter, I think building FP ASAP is also a good idea.
Attachment: 1000bc.jpg
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dmd175
1250 BC (end of turn): Adrianople changed from desert to hill to kick out worker in one less turn (and +1gpt). Arabs move warrior N to meet Saffron. Arab spear/settler visible 8888 Damascus.
1225 BC: Sardica founded. Constantinople MM forest--> ocean (did not need extra shields to build settler).
Worker 9 E (maybe we can trade away an incense). Adrianople to settler.
Special Forces SW. Saffron...what to do with you...maybe we can run and pillage Arabia. Saffron NW.
Magellan 68.
1200 BC: Hittites building Pyramids (ummm, guys, you have like 4 cities!...but we'll be happy to conquer it later for you).
Workers 4679 all roading. Worker3 SW for irrigation. Worker2 moved S to start road to Sardica and spices.
Saffron sick of Arabic warrior. SE, kills him, -2 hp but promoted. Special Forces SW.
Magellan 69.
Constantinople settler: Ottos blocked, war w/ Arabs, so 998 Adrianople to block Hitts.
1175:
Heraclea worker10 SW to road (build barracks). Worker8 SW to road to Chalcedon. Worker2 road.
Saffron W. Special forces SW.
Magellan 978
1150 BC: Ottomans building TOA.
Worker10 road. Worker 4 SE. Worker 6 24. Worker 8 road.
Magellan 69.
Special Forces W. Saffron N.
1125 BC: Naissus founded (warrior).
Trebizond worker 11, Treb builds warrior. Worker11 S to road wheat.
Workers 146 road. Worker 7 E, 9 98, both toward Naissus.
Mag 69.
Saffron rests. Special Forces asks for Arabia's surrender. They spurn him. He was not happy.
He asked permission to attack, an elite warrior vs. regular spear. I consider it...consider it...and bid him good luck. Oooh...two hp lost. Wait, we hit the spear for two. He retaliates, but then Special Forces strikes the fatal blow. Justinian emerges from the rubble of Kufah to lead our people |
Generally speaking, I wouldn't attack a spearman with a warrior unless the situation is dire, especially an elite warrior. They aren't necessarily easy to come by! Glad it netted us a MGL, though 
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dmd175
Now the Arabs will talk. We can get either Poly OR the city of Najran...this city is at the far corner of Arabia and would be tough for us to defend. I'll wait until next turn and see if Saffron can do some damage and try to get us more reparations. |
I would be fairly inclined, generally, to just accept Poly. unless I had fairly specific reasons to want a farflung backwayer burg. This is especially so as we're not finished REXing yet and army is rather small. I know in this game that we are economically dominant and would be able to quickly train a superior army, but we really shouldn't be this far ahead 
quote:
What to do with Justinian? Army or FP? I usually build army, with the hopes that it will pay off via heroic epic with more leaders sooner.
Justinian 999. |
I've always thought an army is generally the way to go with the first MGL, especially with both MGLs and armies being revamped for C3C. A Swordsman army would be both devasting at this juncture as well as enabling the HE, as you've pointed out, and later the Military Academy (though it has been significantly modified in the AU mod, it is still quite valuable). My general heuristic is first leader > army, second leader > FP, though this is, of course extremely situation-dependent and subject to change.
quote:
1100 BC: Drop sci to 20% for +27 gpt and philo in 1 turn.
Const settler to Smyrna 988.
Worker 7,9,11 road. Worker 3 99.
Saffron NW. SF rests. Justinian NE.
Mag 69.
1075BC:
Philo researched. Normally I would take literature without hesitation. But I thought here have not yet built temples, let alone libraries. We are going to be warring soon with possibly all three of our neighbors, and we are seafaring. Furthermore, mapmaking is the most expensive tech available. In doing something I have pretty sure never done before with the free philo tech, I chose mapmaking and await your comments.
Sci back to 80% for literature in 8 turns. |
MM is certainly a valuable tech to achieve in any game, and as you say, it is quite valuable. My main quibble with it is just that I find it is usually the first tech researched by the AI that has Writing as a preq. Also, in this particular case I would want to have Literature so that Nicaea can build a Library without wasting shields, which will be cheaper than its current 'pre-build' of a temple and provide more culture, as well as being more useful should we turn it into a SSC. Also, especially as we're Scientific, I don't necessarily get Temples up and running before Libraries anyway, unless I'm Religious and not Babylon.
Philo to Otto for Poly+121 gold. Poly to Hitt for 73 gold.
quote:
Saffron E for another Arabic warrior kill (no lost hp). SF rest.
Worker 10 SE. Worker 3 road. Worker 8 47.
Justinian 9. Mag 699.
Varna barracks, set to harbor, as is heraclea.
1050 BC: Barb spotted 87 from settler. Halted. Bring Dickus from Const, which is now 2/1/2
happy, content,unhappy.
Worker 8, 10 roads. Worker 12 E to mine. 4 irrigate, 6 mine. 1 SW.
Justinian 8. Mag. 978.
Saffron rest. SF S to hill, spots another Arab spear settler.
1025 BC: Const +1 entertainer.
Worker 7,9,11 irrigate. 1 Road.
Mag 98.
Saffron rest, Dickus N, SF stays.
1000 BC:
Dickus survives and protects settler. Settler and Dickus north. Naissus Mercenary fortifies.
Mag 977.
Saffron E to Damascus. Special Forces kills spear, captures settler = Damn Sam and Baghdad Bob, both of whom go N to meet their death and doom at the gates of some city. Arabs still only give Najran.
Const settler to Sardica 411; Grog to clear the way.
Justinian left to your discretion. I think I would given another turn build army and use it for heroic epic. OTOH, I did read about how watered down the FP is and since its location really does not matter, I think building FP ASAP is also a good idea. |
The thing about the watered down FP that is an "advantage" (or at least something that offsets the new disadvantages) is that it's now ideally located in the 2nd or 3rd ring, this meaning that rushing the FP is far less necessary than it once was. If we do go for the SSC in Nicaea, having the FP there in addition would be a major boon. Once the Library completes and a courthouse is rushed in I would certainly consider starting up the FP there and I would think it could be as little as a ~30 turn project. I know it doesn't look ideal for the FP, and it's not, but our palace is already very central on this continent and there's nowhere really to put it that's not going to be out on an "arm" of land. This in addition to the fact that the real advantage of the FP, IMO, is the increased OCN. Anyway, just things to consider
As Modo pointed out, we are doing almost too well, though I still think we're at a stage where there can still be discussion and learning, especially about the AU mod. I do, however, believe that we are at a stage where the student (or students, theoretically) would be able to successfully win this game without much difficulty. It will still be fun to finally get to try one of Arrians Ultimate Power games firsthand for once, though
Oh, and before I forget, post the save 
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dmd175
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Culturally linked starting location.
Oct 2003
time: 00:20
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Forgeting the save is contagious. I'll post it by 530-6pm when I get home. Sorry.
If you feel that we are too far ahead, I would be happy to be trained at the emperor/demigod level, and it might be more challenging for you as well. What do you think?
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29-11-2004 03:56
to me, as long as they are not 4-turn Settlers.
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