17-11-2004 20:57									#1
	Training Succession Game Got spare money?

First to the legalities:

1) This is not an 'official' AU course in any way (whatever constitutes that.)

2) If this causes any of the AU, uh, 'bureaucracy' to feel I've overstepped my bounds (wherever they lie) please let me know. That wasn't my intention; I did it for a reason.

3) This will be played with C3C 1.22

Ok, I, being a player of the ability of winning stock deity games without capturing any cities I didn't found, feel that I might be able to give some very direct advice on how to play this game to people that play on some of the lower difficulties. Specifically I'm looking for two or three players that play from the range of 'Usually/always beat Warlord' to 'Usually/always lose Monarch' (so that would include anyone who generally plays Regent). This will be a Monarch level game, but most of the settings I leave to the discretion of the students.

I strongly recommend the AU mod, especially as this would probably be about the easiat way to learn its intricacies, as I can explain as we go along. I also want a Standard map, or possibly Small, as I don't want a huge long game and I find Tiny to simply be so small as to change many of the integral dynamics of an epic game. I recommend either 'average' (ie. 70% continents, Temperate, Normal, 4 billion) or random settings for world type. Civ choice is meaningless to me (both player and AI) so that can be completely up to any takers. Rules will be default minus 'Culturally Linked Start Loc.'. Aggression may as well be normal. All in all most of my preferences lie in having a reasonably 'normal' game.

For those unfamiliar with the concept of the Succession Game, it is a game where several players take turns playing the save (ten turns each, generally) and pass it on to the next person, while posting logs of everything they have done. I will play the first ten turns and explain why I do what I do in my log. The next person (probably just order of signup) will then play ten turns and log, pass to the next who plays and logs until it gets back to me. Repeat until game is over. A few beauties of the SG include that they don't require 'true' multiplayer capablities (ie. people with Vanilla can still do their own SGs) and that you get to learn how other players play in a very direct way that you generally can't find anywhere else short of being at someone's computer whilst they are playing. Also finding replacements if someone drops out is fairly easy as there is no password or anything and even without a replacement the game can still continue without a player.

P.S. If there are any Sid players who would like to run a Sid Training SG, I would be happy to join

	18-11-2004 02:29									#2
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Hey, i was interested in joining this succession game, as im a fairly new player.

I know the basics and some of the advanced concepts..however i suck lol. I was not able to beat the GOTM with portugal...infact...i got my complete civ killed in a matter of 4-5 turns I guesss the problem was that spain had so much more territory than me (actually..the island that i was on with spain looked exacly as it does in RL..with me holding the cost and spain the rest). Anyway, i fell behind so much in science that i was trying to defend with spearman againts knights and the like.

Anyway, ill be checking thsi thread.

Javier

	18-11-2004 03:06									#3
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Great idea, pb2000!!

I like having it here in the AU forum, btw... you even want to consider using not-too-old AU games, and thus have even more examples for the 'students' to learn from.

Hopefully in the future other experienced players will take a round as well!

* Theseus thinks I just volunteered myself.

	18-11-2004 04:28									#4
	interested in joining too Full PM-box? Change here!

Sounds like a good idea. I could definitely use "very direct advice" to improve my game.

Though I've beat monarch a few times, I lack the fine skills necessary to compete effectively on monarch and above. I read and read these boards, but someone critiquing my actual moves and decisions would be very helpful.

Thanks
Dave

	18-11-2004 05:51									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Glad to see a positive response

We have enough to start, though settings, etc. still need to be decided. If another joins before we're through the first cycle of players, they can certainly play. One thing that occurred to me is that order should probably be done by usual playing time; I can pretty well always play at 10-11am EST and 11-12PM EST. If other players would post their best availabilities and their setting preferences that would be helpful.

I should also mention that I'm a bit of a builder, as my original, uh, qualification indicates. This, of course does not preclude warmongering players from joining and learning, just know that my opinions will be a bit biased. There is no 'correct' way to play, per se; many strategies can be used and mine is by no means the best. Just things to keep in mind .

	18-11-2004 07:41									#6
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I can usually play anytime after 3:30 pm central. I believe that would be 4:30 Est time...but not sure...any settings are fine with me, including civ.

Javier

	18-11-2004 19:13									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think the settings you mentioned initially were fine - we should definitely have a small map. Random civ might be good so no one is dependent on some civ characteristic.

I'm more of a builder too.

My schedule is probably a bit more hectic, and my play times would be toward later evening (> 7pm). Since you mentioned we'll only be playing 10 turns each I think I can fit it in, but some days I won't be able to play (ie this sat night) when I'm on call.

	18-11-2004 20:24									#8
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Ok, that's fine. Sounds like Me>Javier>dmd should be a fine rotation. So, just to clarify settings:

World Size: Small
Barbarians: Restless?
Land Mass: Continents
Water Level: 70%
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Temperate
Age: 4 billion
Civs (player and AI): Random
Rules: Default - 'Culturaly Linked Start Loc.'
Aggression: Normal
Level: Monarch
Version: C3C 1.22

Just a few things to get in order: I didn't mention barbs before, but is Restless fine? Also, how do you guys feel about using/learning the AU mod? Are you aware of it at all or completely new to it? To describe it briefly, it is a communal attempt by the AU community to make C3C more strategic/difficult without changing the rules from stock more than necessary. It plays similarly to stock, but there's a few changes. It is slightly harder, IMO, but not too much for the purposes of this game (ie. half a level more diifficult, approximately). Many of the changes are just to AI build routines (if you've seen the editor, these pertain mostly to 'Build often', 'Build never', etc.). A couple changes you'll notice that have the most effect on human play are limits on early boats and that cavalry have had their attack reduced to 5. There is a thread stickied in this Forum (the Apolyton University forum) that details the intentions and changes of the AU mod by alexman, who created it.

EDIT: Here's alexman's thread

As this is a SG, I can easily explain to you guys the differences as they come up, but the decision is yours; If you would feel more comfortable with stock we will certainly play it.

Finally, we need everyone's e-mail address.

I'm punkbass TA gmail TOD com

	18-11-2004 23:42									#9
	Support Apolyton

Barbs could be made harder - I usually play raging, but restless fine. Also I thought you were nixing culturally linked start.

I've read alexman's thread. sounds fine. I can d/l and install it.

I'm dmd175 gmail

	19-11-2004 00:04									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Sorry that was a bit confusing, I meant the '-' as a minus symbol; it is without linked starts.
Raging is fine by me.

	19-11-2004 02:28									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Well i hav enever used the AU mod..but its fine for me...i can easily download them.


Hmm...i have downloaded it..however i do not know how to install it..should i just extract all files to the scenarios folder?

Javier

	19-11-2004 08:29									#12
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Yes, extract it into Scenarios. I should create an 'AU mod' folder. If you want to start any AU mod games on your own, select 'Civ-Content' from the initial menu and select 'Au mod V1.06' or something similar to that. I may be wrong, but I don't think you guys will need to install the mod to play the SG; as long as I start the game. I could be wrong, so you may as well install it anyway.

	19-11-2004 09:28									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

yup got it installed and got my ass whooped...hopefully this will help me out. I noticed i fell back in the technology race, went to midelages behind everyone i believe..but was first to field the medieval warriors (i believe thats what they are called.). Anyway, i went to war with a neighbor to take over a city and hopefulyl get some techs from him, however, he alied with another powerful civ that came streaming at me with horses and ancient calvalry, at this time i only had swordsman and was defending well enough..however, the endless attacks by the horses finally broke throu my defenses...looking forward to the game.

	19-11-2004 21:10									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ok, we've started. We ended up with a very nice start as well as a good civ, the Byzantines. I swere I did not try to get a good map! This one was the first.

4000BC Settled on the spot, no reason not to. Were Seafaring so starting by water is great whether it's ocean or freshwater and there's wheat. I don't like to move much when I start unless I can see a river or some such.
Worker W, which was a tough decision. I figure we're better in the long run to get mine + road in 9 turns there than a road on the game in six. The wheat is not irrigable yet so it's not too high a priority. I did decide to use the game tile for now as we build a warrior and granary. A forest will come down soon as well.
Researching Pottery full blast > 11 turns.

3950 BC Worker starts mine.

Enter until 3800BC Warrior built. WE're right in the center of the map, so there's no particular direction to generally head for, but I see the edge of a river in that desert and thus send him E.
Constantinople set to granary prebuild (barracks).

3750BC Warrior N.

3700BC Warrior NE to mountain. Meet Hittite warrior (Damn! That was quick) They have nothing to offer but a few gold and pottery, which by this point we'll have in four turns anyway and they want BW for it anyway. This early contact is really great, significantly decreasing the cost of Pottery for us and giving us a trading partner. Two incense spotted in the SE as well.

3650BC Worker begins road. Warrior E.

3600BC Minor set back. Warrior W. That Hittite warrior is heading straight for the capital.

3550BC Warrior W. Freakin Hittites.

3500BC The Hittites have taken their first step away from Constantinople, going E. Phew! Warrior E.
Pottery discovered. Now researching Writing at 50 turn pace. Normally, at Monarch, you can lead the tech race without a lot of trouble, but the same could be said of Emperor. However, I've decided to go with the 50 turn Writing strategy for a few reasons. First, I imagine that you guys probably don't lead the tech race at Monarch. Second, We were lucky enough to start with Alphabet anyway and Writing is the number choice for tech to research at 50 turn pace as its usually one of the last second tier techs researched by the AI. Third, the Moarch AI is competent enough to give a good tech pace anyway. Fourth, I think going this route will give you guys a lot of insight into tech choice and consequently tech trade. Finally, if you do end up moving into Mon/Emp+ games in the future this general strategy is on the verge of mandatory when you're playing at the appropriate level for skill.
Constantinople grows and borders expand. MicroManaged to working improved BG and Game, giving us a granary in eight turns and growth in ten which is very important as your granary needs to be filled before it starts working. It can be useful to delay growth in some cases (like this one) in order to build the granary before a pop growth as this will actually make growth 10 food faster very soon afterwards. Oh, and no chop is necessary. I analyzed this a bit and couldn't find a good way to take advantage of the Wheat tile while still timing the granary for just before pop growth. Also, building the granary ten shields faster would be somewhat useful, but there are probably better things for the worker to do as it won't speed growth. Also we want this city to get a chance to grow a bit before it builds the first settler; it has four-turn settler factory written all over it.
Worker two tiles E. Expanding on above, roading the game will give us one extra commerce, of course, but we probably want our next city on that river to take advantage of those juicy floodplains and also to grab the incense. Roads in that direction will speed the building of our second city. Also, this will be a convenient tile to chop and irrigate through to take advantage of the automatic irrigation in our first two cities and bring to it to the W side of our territory. (Wheat!)

That is the end of my turn. You may notice I technically played 11 turns as there was a turn '0', but I think it will be generally easier to end when the F8 screen says '10' and its multiples. Nice round year numbers for a bit, too. I saved at the 'End turn' point of when F8 says 'Turn 10', and think this is probably the best way to do it. The next player can press enter and then begin their ten turns.

Here's the screen of where we're at:

Attachment: tsg3500bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 142 time(s).

	19-11-2004 21:11									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Here's the save for Javier, too. I need you e-mail address

Attachment: tsg3500bctojlq.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	19-11-2004 23:19									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Will you be accepting comments/suggestions?

	19-11-2004 23:21									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Irrigate the wheat and the game, and make a nice 4 turn settler pump and a 2 turn worker pump. That alone should win you this game.

	20-11-2004 01:54									#18
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Krill Irrigate the wheat and the game, and make a nice 4 turn settler pump and a 2 turn worker pump. That alone should win you this game.

The trick is getting fresh water to those tiles. There are slower and faster ways of doing this.

I think this is an interesting start because it allows for a strong non-standard build queue: rather than do the usual Warrior/Worker-Granary-Settlers, I would go for a Settler first here. One can be built one pretty quick by exploiting the Game tile to the fullest. I would then place this early second city E-NE of the capital, on the Desert tile. Thus by irrigating the adjacent Flood Plains tile, I can get fresh water through to all the high Food tiles within the capital's radius. All this Food allows for additional Workers, which will eventually make up for the slow start, Shield-wise (I would not build any Warriors for quite a while).

Optimal? Who knows. But different.

Just felt like sharing that.

	20-11-2004 02:04									#19
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It is interesting, you're right, but I would still go with the early worker, since there are four forests that can be chopped, speeding the granary. That would also allow the early production of a 4turn pump, whereas you would need to build another worker ASAP to take advatage of the extra tiles that the new pop would use anyway, loosing more time.


Personally, I would have gone with a wroker, then a prebuild for a granary. It is a four turn settler pump, with irrigation, and I would use it as such until I could irrigate the wheats and game tiles, to create a new worker pump.

Your strat allows early exploration, and maybe a couple of early workers, so yours allows you to start manipulating the AI sooner. While that is not really needed at this level, it is still one of the game breakers, giving you greater control over the strategy that this game would follow.



But, yeah, warriors would be way behind pretty much everything but wonders on my list. (Except if I got an SGL).


PB, can you post the 4000BC save, please?

	20-11-2004 02:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Krill It is interesting, you're right, but I would still go with the early worker, since there are four forests that can be chopped, speeding the granary. That would also allow the early production of a 4turn pump, whereas you would need to build another worker ASAP to take advatage of the extra tiles that the new pop would use anyway, loosing more time.

A couple of responses to this (I'm out the door):

1. Getting fresh water to your Wheat and Game tiles sooner is not, IMO, an example of "wasting time".

2. The problem with doing a lot of Forest Chops early on is that you end up behind in permanent tile improvements. Even with two Workers (here, non-Industrious), it's not easy to keep up 100% with the tile improvement required for a pump city or two.

3. Two cities with high Food ouput outgrow one city with a Granary.

	20-11-2004 02:52									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well before i play my turns i have a few questions i want to ask so taht i do not mess the game up. First thing that caught my eye on the screeny ar ethe two goody huts outside our city radius, and was wondering why you had not popped them...any particular reason? or is it because your warrior is on the otehr side? should i head there and pop them or keep the warrior exploring to the E?

I also have a question about the city placement...the next city you mentioned it would be a good idea to set it up next to river in range of the insence so that we could take advantage of it..i get that...sounds good..however, how far along the river should i make the new city? As i looked at the screeny i was thinking of placing it where that hittie warrior is...or should i go a further tile to the NE..which would be NW of the second insence.

Another question that always bugs my games, after creating second city...what is priority of building at the new city? i believe i always built a warrior while my city grew enough to creat something else (most always a granary). And one more, I believe that after the granary i should make the new settler, or at least start on it (since it will take 8 more turns for granary), should i send the worker to make a road to where the new city will lay, so that settler can get there right away..or should i keep him back improving city tiles?

Sorry for these questions...i understand that they may seem kind of noobish to you guys, i just dont want to screw up the game.

Javier

	20-11-2004 08:24									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Looks like a nice start. My comments unfortunately are all based on the screenshot...I kept getting "DataIO operation System Error: LEAD" and "Error reading file..."??? This is with the AU mod installed, C3C, etc.

Anyway,
1. I'm curious about the goody huts too? Shouldn't we beeline to these before the hittites, provided we can block him from our capital?

2. Tech: learned something already...I would really not have gone for pottery but would have waited to trade for it. I guess it's that important.

3. 50 turn pace: is the AI really willing enough to trade to keep us in it? Hopefully pb you'll explain more about this 50 turn scheme as we go on.

4. Cost of research: you mentioned that pottery is cheaper since the hittites grabbed it. did the research turns actually decrease after you met them (at 4000 bc it was 11 turns, but we definitely had it by turn 10 [or was this constantinople expanding?])

5. 2nd city placement: On mon/emp and above, is it cxxc or what? I assume not "optimal". If it were me alone, I would have went for 6999 from constantinople. This has the advantage of getting us a free aqueduct in a city that is going to boom w/ all the flood plains. Dominae (I think) suggested 6699, which improves a desert tile for free for us.

6. Worker action: seems that we could a. improve wheat around capital or b. road out to city #2. Obviously permanent improvements will be a great help. OTOH, since capital is 10 turns from growth, and then shortly after that will -2 pop w/ settler, I think roading to our second city site makes sense since capital will not be able to get much out of permanent improvements on wheat, etc in very short term.

7. Pop rushes: how important to exploit on mon/emp and above? sometimes I forget to fully use this, though I always try to do it when 20 sh away from temples, barracks, etc. What do you guys think?

8. Longer term govt? More curious, but is our strategy for rep or monarchy?

---
General question: I wanted to play a massive pangaea game recently and all I wanted was to be plopped down in the middle of land as far as I could see. unfortunately, I started and restarted and every game was on the coast (no seafaring civ either). when civ patched the game to fix the bug about not starting seafaring civs near coasts, did they botch it and make it so every civ starts near the coast?

hopefully you guys can tell me how to fix that game loading error, and I look forward to Javier's turns and my turns.

	20-11-2004 08:38									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Will you be accepting comments/suggestions?

NO! I am the teacher! j/k

Accepting? Hell, I'm inviting.

	20-11-2004 08:43									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Krill Irrigate the wheat and the game, and make a nice 4 turn settler pump and a 2 turn worker pump. That alone should win you this game.

Well, yes, but that's not really the point

	20-11-2004 08:46									#25
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Dominae The trick is getting fresh water to those tiles. There are slower and faster ways of doing this. I think this is an interesting start because it allows for a strong non-standard build queue: rather than do the usual Warrior/Worker-Granary-Settlers, I would go for a Settler first here. One can be built one pretty quick by exploiting the Game tile to the fullest. I would then place this early second city E-NE of the capital, on the Desert tile. Thus by irrigating the adjacent Flood Plains tile, I can get fresh water through to all the high Food tiles within the capital's radius. All this Food allows for additional Workers, which will eventually make up for the slow start, Shield-wise (I would not build any Warriors for quite a while). Optimal? Who knows. But different. Just felt like sharing that.

You may be right here; I almost always go granary before settler, and never build a worker until I have at least three cities. Different strokes/folks, etc. Certainly the FW issue you highlight is probably a good enough reason to build the settler first, but I really like having my apital getting to five or six pop ASAP so that it can produce a lot of uncorrupted commerce whilst pumping out those four-turn settlers.

	20-11-2004 08:56									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Krill It is interesting, you're right, but I would still go with the early worker, since there are four forests that can be chopped, speeding the granary. That would also allow the early production of a 4turn pump, whereas you would need to build another worker ASAP to take advatage of the extra tiles that the new pop would use anyway, loosing more time.

I don't like to much forst chops early, as Dominae points out, they are one time shots and often you can afford to wait. A mined tile will speed up your granary every turn of its existence; a chop as useful when you have 50 shields in your box as 0. Also, there's only one hill in my capital's radius and I'll want some forest when it hits size six and is done pumping settlers.

quote: PB, can you post the 4000BC save, please?

Here ya go:

	20-11-2004 08:58									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae 3. Two cities with high Food ouput outgrow one city with a Granary.

How's that? Only if you don't MM enough... unless your implication is that the one city won't be high food.

	20-11-2004 09:15									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by JavierLQ Well before i play my turns i have a few questions i want to ask so taht i do not mess the game up.

First off, don't worry about it! This is a learning game. I won't be mad if we lose. I will answer your questions, but I would prefer you generally make your own decisions; following my orders wouldn't be much better than me simply playing the gmae myself and writing reports for you. If you make your own 'miatakes' (not that there's really such a thing in civ, just 'better' and 'not as good')

quote: First thing that caught my eye on the screeny ar ethe two goody huts outside our city radius, and was wondering why you had not popped them...any particular reason? or is it because your warrior is on the otehr side? should i head there and pop them or keep the warrior exploring to the E?

I just found them when the borders expanded, so I couldn't have popped them. Also, as we have a warrior and are not expansionist, there is a chance for barbs which we are not prepared for. Normally I would wait, though the nearby Hittite is nearby. It is a tough call, as I'm also hesitant to back track with the warrior again. If the Hittite isn't moving toward them, I would be just as happy to wait for cultural expansion to open them or to wait for cities that are going around there to open them, as no barbs will appear in a hut that is opened by a city's initial nine tiles. There's no hurry as maps where those hust are probably won't be too useful, 25 gold or tech are nearly as good later as now (well, to a point). Only the unlikely event of a settler would be 'worthwhile', IMO.

quote: I also have a question about the city placement...the next city you mentioned it would be a good idea to set it up next to river in range of the insence so that we could take advantage of it..i get that...sounds good..however, how far along the river should i make the new city? As i looked at the screeny i was thinking of placing it where that hittie warrior is...or should i go a further tile to the NE..which would be NW of the second insence.

I would place it in your first spot mentioned (699), where the Hittite is.

quote: Another question that always bugs my games, after creating second city...what is priority of building at the new city? i believe i always built a warrior while my city grew enough to creat something else (most always a granary).

I would probably build warrior and then a worker given its high growth. Then I would start a granary, and chop the game forest to speed it along.

quote: And one more, I believe that after the granary i should make the new settler, or at least start on it (since it will take 8 more turns for granary), should i send the worker to make a road to where the new city will lay, so that settler can get there right away..or should i keep him back improving city tiles?

Yes, I would start the settler immediately after the granary and move the worker E to build a road. Not only will this speed the settler, it will speed the irrigating that will soon follow.

quote: Sorry for these questions...i understand that they may seem kind of noobish to you guys, i just dont want to screw up the game.

Don't worry, that's the point!

	20-11-2004 09:29									#29
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by dmd175 Looks like a nice start. My comments unfortunately are all based on the screenshot...I kept getting "DataIO operation System Error: LEAD" and "Error reading file..."??? This is with the AU mod installed, C3C, etc.

I don't know much about errors, but the only thing I can think of is that maybe you're not patched to 1.22?

quote: 1. I'm curious about the goody huts too? Shouldn't we beeline to these before the hittites, provided we can block him from our capital?

See my response to JLQ.

quote: 2. Tech: learned something already...I would really not have gone for pottery but would have waited to trade for it. I guess it's that important.

That probably would have been better given the circumstances, but I don't think I've ever met a civ this early game. Generally I think pottery is very important. Also, if you don't meet an Agr. or Exp. civ early you may be waiuting for a while; I don't like to leave it to chance.

quote: 3. 50 turn pace: is the AI really willing enough to trade to keep us in it? Hopefully pb you'll explain more about this 50 turn scheme as we go on.

Oh yes, they will for something like Writing. It is an expensive tech at this time in the game at that plays a lot into how highly the AI values it. IF we meet another civ or two by then I fully expect to gain all first tier techs (except maybe the Wheel) as well as possibly IW and Myst.

quote: 4. Cost of research: you mentioned that pottery is cheaper since the hittites grabbed it. did the research turns actually decrease after you met them (at 4000 bc it was 11 turns, but we definitely had it by turn 10 [or was this constantinople expanding?])

Yes, it actually decreased from five to four turns, IIRC. Tech cost is directly affected by the number of civs you have contact with that have the tech.

quote: 5. 2nd city placement: On mon/emp and above, is it cxxc or what? I assume not "optimal". If it were me alone, I would have went for 6999 from constantinople. This has the advantage of getting us a free aqueduct in a city that is going to boom w/ all the flood plains. Dominae (I think) suggested 6699, which improves a desert tile for free for us.

You can certainly get away with OCP at Monarch (just ask Arrian ), but cxxc is generally stronger. cxcxc (AKA ICS) is een stronger, but I don't like it; it's too powerful and ends up with a lot of MM, plus I consider it to be exploitative (the AI will never place its cities that close together).

quote: 6. Worker action: seems that we could a. improve wheat around capital or b. road out to city #2. Obviously permanent improvements will be a great help. OTOH, since capital is 10 turns from growth, and then shortly after that will -2 pop w/ settler, I think roading to our second city site makes sense since capital will not be able to get much out of permanent improvements on wheat, etc in very short term.

Yes, I would road towards new city location first. There's not much to be done with the Wheat just yet.

quote: 7. Pop rushes: how important to exploit on mon/emp and above? sometimes I forget to fully use this, though I always try to do it when 20 sh away from temples, barracks, etc. What do you guys think?

I don't do it much, I'm a nice builder . I usually only use it to rush a temple in a one shield/two food city that seems like it has a high likelihood of flipping.

quote: 8. Longer term govt? More curious, but is our strategy for rep or monarchy?

I would go for Republic in almost all situations, but, as I say, I'm a builder. Another good reason for Writing.

quote: --- General question: I wanted to play a massive pangaea game recently and all I wanted was to be plopped down in the middle of land as far as I could see. unfortunately, I started and restarted and every game was on the coast (no seafaring civ either). when civ patched the game to fix the bug about not starting seafaring civs near coasts, did they botch it and make it so every civ starts near the coast?

You'll probably need to play at least a Large map to have a reasonable chance at being landlocked, but I've never really tried it out much. Also, are sure those starts are all near ocean, and not just lakes? (unless your'e avoiding those too, in which case n/m)

	20-11-2004 09:34									#30
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pb, thanks for responses.

the error occurred immediately after I installed c3c 1.22. It sort of messed up my c3c main menu, changing the first items to "barricade" and "build barricade" instead of "new game". I uninst and reinst and same errors during both (?)

fyi, I won't be home to play until sunday AM.