18-11-2004 21:25									#1
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how can spanish Conquistadores be of any use. I´ve allways read that spanish conquistador can be usefull but only in extreme situations, but until now i´ve been only able to find em useful if in a game you manage to atack a civilization that:
Is still using spearmen as defense.
has not build any roads in his lands.
In any other situation any other unit fits better.

So? anyone plays spanish from time to time? what are the advantages of this civilization. I´d like to give em a try, but thinking in the conquistador unit stops me each time. [religious and seafaring traits are not so great alone]

	18-11-2004 22:44									#2
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They make great scouts (put them on top of mountains), they can be used to finish off weakened units and then withdraw out of range of an enemy counterattack.
These benefits of course will be of lesser value against human opponents, because they are much better field generals than AI civs, but there's something else and IMO that makes them shine: they're perfect to slip into enemy territory and pillage their strategic resources tiles to cripple their military production capabilities.

	18-11-2004 22:50									#3
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Also something else I can see is creating an Army of conquistadores... ouch. 3 movement points, treat everything as roads, and if I understand correctly double attack when there are 4 units in it?

	18-11-2004 23:14									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris shine: they're perfect to slip into enemy territory and pillage their strategic resources tiles to cripple their military production capabilities.

A 30 shield explorer can do the same thing. Sure you'll lose it next turn but so what? It's just a crappy 30 shield explorer. You'd probably lose that pillaging conquistador too.

	18-11-2004 23:19									#5
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Unless you make an army of them. The AI has problems deciding to attack those. Imagine having 9 moves over every terrain and being able to pillage on 8 of those moves. Sweet.

	18-11-2004 23:59									#6
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I find Conquistadors useful for pillage as above; but if you want to use them to take down an enemy civ, that civ must be just spearmen. Think of them as armed scouts UNLESS you find an ancient-era civ, or a civ with no iron...then you can use them to attack. (evil cackle)

That pretty much dovetails with history, as the Spanish conquistadors were able to conquer the Aztec and Inca empires, both of which were using spearmen-equivalents back in the 1520's and 1530's.

	19-11-2004 00:47									#7
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The Conquistor's main advantage to an explorer if some amount of defense and an extra movement point. This includes all-as-roads, so effectively moves 9 instead of 6.

AI can not handle any stack of units pillaging that's capiable of moving that fast, be the owner human or another AI.

There's enough wonders to trigure a peaceful GA by then, but if you really want to trigure it with your UU as the Spainish, have a Conquister finish off a unit that's been damaged down to 1 HP.

	19-11-2004 02:47									#8
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator A 30 shield explorer can do the same thing. Sure you'll lose it next turn but so what? It's just a crappy 30 shield explorer. You'd probably lose that pillaging conquistador too.

I thought that explorers couldn't pillage because of their 0 attack.

	19-11-2004 02:51									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Unless you make an army of them. The AI has problems deciding to attack those. Imagine having 9 moves over every terrain and being able to pillage on 8 of those moves. Sweet.

I rarely have so many armies that I want to waste one soley for pillaging duty. Once you've pillaged with them, they can't do much else useful. If you attack they will likely lose enough hps that the AI will go after them.

I'm content to lose a couple explorers when and if I need to pillage.

	19-11-2004 02:57									#10
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With 9 moves inside AI territory you are bound to find some loose Workers to capture (and kill). And you can do enormous damage to their road network. Yes, you'll have problems if you attack, but you don't have to - the units folowing can do that. Definately not a straight forward way, but effective nonetheless.
And it's lots of fun to watch them fields burn.

	19-11-2004 04:23									#11
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I've used conquistadors fairly late in the game for first strike against key resources and luxuries. They can hit so deep behind the line. Yes, they are pricey compared to some units but at that stage cost is not as important to me. Obviously mech inf is beyond them, but riflemen are valid targets for a pack of them. Nothing like knocking out unit build ability right off the bat.

	19-11-2004 06:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator I'm content to lose a couple explorers when and if I need to pillage.

So explorers can pillage, right?

	19-11-2004 13:32									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So explorers can pillage, right?

Yes, pillaging is a unit action flag that is turned on for explorers and scouts. Some player modify this by turning it off as the AI does not seen to pillage with a unit that has no combat factors.

	22-11-2004 23:41									#14
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no one has answered if spanish is a chooseable civ. I´m puting them face to face against all the other civs, don´t really know if there coulb be a worst civ [based in it´s unit americans could be worst].

If you have to face a human player you´ll never be confident in taking resources away with explorers so you´re not being confident in doing so with conquistadores you can try, but most probably, the resource it´s going to be guarded and the conquistador wont last long after the incursión as he will be faced with Knights the least.

I´ve never used one of my armies with conquistadores, that´s true, but, you see, spain is not militaristic and has not lots of armies around, and i choose to stuff my armies with cavalry or knights 100% of the time.

I see conquistador could be a threat if you find someone who doesn´t guard his cities as you can atack 3rd line cities, but a single musketman can deal with a lot of them poor conquistadores.

So, do any of you would choose spain in a multiplayer game?

zafyro

	01-12-2004 22:17									#15
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Zafyro (nice nick btw), the only good Conquistador is a dead Conquistador. The Spanish Civilization is played at it's best in the higher echelon of difficulty because of their unique traits. Their UU, the Conquistador, sucks badly and is one of the worst of C3C. I normally don't choose Spain. Some people (non spaniards) are very fond of them nevertheless. I guess it's a matter of taste.

The Conquistadores are very good at pillaging. They can pillage up to two (or three) tiles without getting penalised in their movements. If you make an army of 4 Conquistadores you will have a pillaging machine of 4 times two able to pillage 8 tiles (plus one) at any given moment. Although an army of 4 cavalry can pillage 12 plus one tile= 13 tiles.

Why don't you visit the Spanish forum; I've never seen you before. Estás invitado a unirte a la peña de Poly, Joaquín:

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdis...?s=&forumid=160

(PD. C/ Montera; vaya, yo vivía en Conde Duque, donde el ex-cuartel hoy reconvertido en sala de exposiciones y biblioteca. Se han solucionado ya los problemas con las pilinguis de Montera ?)

Last edited by Drakan on 02-12-2004 at 21:08

	22-12-2004 23:51									#16
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Conquistador armies are excellent in the Infantry era - you're generally only attacking with artillery SODs, so while your SODs are slowly advancing, your Conq Army can run around nobbling stray workers and destroying roads and rail lines.

	04-01-2005 04:16									#17
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The Conquistador the worst UU? I'm not sure.

On anything less than Sid, give me a stack of Conquis, and I'll flat annihilate any AI civ still in the ancient era, or with no iron. That's pretty decent imo.

When modding, I sometimes up the conquistador with extra hps or something. I'm still debating it. I'm making a mod right now and I agree the conq needs something...maybe. I considered 4/2/2 or 3/3/3 but I've always kept it at 3/2/2. The all-as-road helps if deployed properly.

	04-01-2005 08:24									#18
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The conquistador is the only AI UU that worries me (although I don't like facing things like Sipahi). Any worker anywhere near my borders is unsafe as is any resource or luxury.

I love having conquistadores, god help the AI then, he will soon lose his iron, saltpetre, luxuries and horses (even if I lose the conq it is worth it to cut off the iron, so long as I can reach that iron and pillage it). A 4 unit conquistadore army is awesomece.

I am inclined to think that the conquistadore is one of the best UU's.

	05-01-2005 01:45									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Mace The Conquistador the worst UU? I'm not sure. On anything less than Sid, give me a stack of Conquis, and I'll flat annihilate any AI civ still in the ancient era, or with no iron.

... which isn't very many civs if you play above regent. Such weakling civs are easy pickings anyway. A stack of Med Inf and Trebs and they're toast. You don't need anything special like Conquistadors.

quote: Originally posted by peterfharris I love having conquistadores, god help the AI then, he will soon lose his iron, saltpetre, luxuries and horses (even if I lose the conq it is worth it to cut off the iron, so long as I can reach that iron and pillage it).

You almost surely will lose that d=2 Conquistador against any decent civ. That's 70 shields down the drain. Comparatively, I can build 7 Explorers for every 2 Conquistadors and they can pillage an additional 5 extra tiles just as easily. Worse, if you are in Republic, every attacked Conquistador contributes 2 WWP versus just 1 for losing each Explorer.

quote: A 4 unit conquistadore army is awesomece.

Only because the AI is handicapped about attacking full strength armies.

All that said, I agree that facing the Spanish is nerve racking. Your workers and resources are not safe. If the AI had the smarts to pillage with explorers as well as with Conquistadors, it would level the playing field. From a military standpoint, however, Conquistadors are notoriously underpowered for their era. Just put some pikes or mustkets on your resources and workers and I bet the AI leaves them alone. Problem is, none of us are used to playing that way.

Conquistadors are a lot like Impi: units not good for much except pillaging. It sucks when you have them as neighbors, but that doesn't mean they are all that powerful from the human perspective. What's unusual about them is that the AI actually knows what to do with them.

	05-01-2005 02:03									#20
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Impi also make the perfect defenders for your Horsemen attacking in the ancient era.

	05-01-2005 04:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator ... which isn't very many civs if you play above regent. Such weakling civs are easy pickings anyway. A stack of Med Inf and Trebs and they're toast. You don't need anything special like Conquistadors.

That's very true...
I was indirectly making reference to Cortes and Pizarro, who, in the 1520's and 1530's, destroyed two bronze-age civs with Conquistador-equivalents.

	05-01-2005 04:51									#22
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In a multiplayer game, they can be devistating. I consider them an average UU. The Civ traits are good however, and overall it is an average choice. I have played well and poorly with them.

	05-01-2005 23:54									#23
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Impis are one of the VERY best UU's in MP games. Conquistadors are average to above-average in MP games. They force your opponent to guard each and every city, whereas normally, interior or back cities may be left unguarded.

As mentioned, Conqs are absolutely devastating when used for pillaging. You pillage a tile or two then move to a nearby mountain to wait for the next turn. Clearing Conqs off mountains isn't necessarily a piece of cake.

Overall, I've used Spain in long epic-style MP games and have found them to be about average. Their traits are pretty nice. People shouldn't base everything on the UU. That's only a small part of a civ's ability.

	09-01-2005 06:45									#24
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Well, if you're playing spain, chances are it's because of the UU, not the advantages...but that's my opinion...

	09-01-2005 06:47									#25
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As far as good early UUs, I'd go with the Babylonian Bowmen and Mayan Javelin Throwers. Even without Iron, you can still kill...

	09-01-2005 12:15									#26
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Jav Throwers are, hands down, one of the weakest UU's in the game.

	10-01-2005 00:35									#27
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Javan Throwers 33% of the time turn defeated oppoents into workers, including BARBS!

Best with Raging Hordes and combine with the barb farming tactics.

Also remember not to join the created barb workers into cities or else you'll have happiness problems. (You are ALWAYS at war with the barbs)

quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis Jav Throwers are, hands down, one of the weakest UU's in the game.

	10-01-2005 04:07									#28
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Yeah, I understand that.

Here's why I say the Jav Thrower is a terrible unit:

If you're in a game where you actually have to fight early on, let's say you run into a no horses/no iron problem. Ouch! With the Mayans, you can't even build archers! The jump from 10 shields for a warrior to 30 for your "next-best" attack unit is just too much, IMO. It makes the Mayans heavily resource-dependent in the early game.

Good thing they've got those great traits to back them up.

	10-01-2005 20:29									#29
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If I had neither horses nor iron in a SP game I'm probably heading pretty rapidally to the restart on a new map button.

quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis Yeah, I understand that. Here's why I say the Jav Thrower is a terrible unit: If you're in a game where you actually have to fight early on, let's say you run into a no horses/no iron problem. Ouch! With the Mayans, you can't even build archers! The jump from 10 shields for a warrior to 30 for your "next-best" attack unit is just too much, IMO. It makes the Mayans heavily resource-dependent in the early game. Good thing they've got those great traits to back them up.

	10-01-2005 21:28									#30
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Unfortunately, you can't do that in a MP game. You've got to learn to work with what you've got. By resetting, you never learn to survive without resources. You can overcome it, but it's tough without archers.