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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:18
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Well, on second thought, if the film is trying to be as accurate as possible about the man, bravo. It just seems that there is a lot of controversy about this one issue.
Now Hadrian was also known to have a "special" friend. Did that make him gay? Was it possible to have a "close" male friend without having a sexual relationship at that time in history?
I have also heard similar stories about Julius Caesar.
Last edited by Ned on 21-11-2004 at 14:44
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Well, on second thought, if the film is trying to be as accurate as possible about the man, bravo. It just seems that there is a lot of controversy about this one issue.
Now Hadrian was also known to have a "special" friend. Did that make him gay? Was it possible to have a "close" male friend without having a sexual relationship at that time in history?
I have also heard similar stories about Julius Caesar. |
Since the modern definition of a sexual identity didn't exist this is a fatuous line of investigation at best.
Hadrian's love, both emotional and physical for his Bithynian friend Antinous isn't even a matter of dispute.
Alexander's love for Hephaestion, as with the love of Achilles and Patroclus, never used to excite such frenzied and anachronistic denials.
Then along came Judaeo-Christianity, and oh my, what a falling off there was....
This has led to such ludicrous revisionism as modern day Greeks denying outright what is a matter of fact and not speculation- even attempting to brush over the polymorphous sexuality of Greek mythical figures, such as Herakles, Apollo, and Zeus.
Which is just a trifle difficult, given that for instance Zeus in myth is said to have transformed himself into an eagle in order to snatch a human boy whose beauty he was besotted with, in order to have the said boy, Ganymede, perform intimate services for him.
Then of course there's all those inconvenient examples of graffiti, the black figure vases and poetry, both lyric and dramatic and the philosophical disquisitions on the superior nature of male-male love, both emotional and physical to that which existed between men and women in Ancient Greece.
Still, bigots have never been ones to let minor inconveniences such as facts get in the way of denials and rants.
I suggest you look at the Symposium Scene painted by the Hegesiboulos Painter, the work of the Brygos Painter (specifically Man and Youth Initiating Intercrural Intercourse) and read Vitruvius on what the Macedonian architect Dincrates is said to have done in order to be awarded a contract by Alexander.
These are of course but a few of the many examples I could cite.
Stripping naked, oiling oneself and then dressing as Herakles is presumably not the way I. M. Pei or Norman Foster went about getting their commissions but it seems to have attracted the interest or notice of Alexander, for then Dinocrates went on to design the most enduring of the cities named after his emperor- Alexandria.
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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:18
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Its also important to understand that ancient Greeks did not link sex to reproduction - they linked it to pleasure. So one might express one's feeling sexually to either male or female - its not even clear what we might call sex was considered sex as far as the homosexual or heterosexual side was concerned. This distinction was meaningless in ancient Greek culture - rather like buggery being an initiation ritual in English public schools - those involved did not consider themselves gay or doing a homosexual act.
Macedonians from Alexander's period believed babies were brought by the wind and horses had something to do with it, but I forget what - read Professor Lane Fox's book, he mentions it.
Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 22-11-2004 at 01:16
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Jon Miller
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I thought it well known that Alexander was gay, even for a greek.
I think that there did end up being one woman who he fell for, but most of what I read said that he prefered men mostly (she came into his life relatively late).
Also I am fairly sure, at least for the young males, that receiving anal sex was common. (I think the older males were not suppose to recieve, could be wrong on this).
Jon Miller
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
Also I am fairly sure, at least for the young males, that receiving anal sex was common. (I think the older males were not suppose to recieve, could be wrong on this).
Jon Miller |
The 'active' role was usually reserved for the older male, who would also usually have been of a higher social standing to the younger one- whether that standing was due to birth (membership of the aristocracy) or his maturity, or his role as educator/initiator, or because the younger/inferior partner was a foreigner or a slave.
The surviving pictorial evidence is heavily weighted towards depictions of intercrural ( or interfemoral sex)but depictions of penetrative anal sex do occur, as do mentions of it in the surviving works of literature.
A silver cup from a Hellenized Roman city explicitly depicts anal penetrative sex between an older and younger man- the younger male is usually identified by his beardlessness. This accounts for the conversation about Achilles and Patroklos in which Achilles was said to be the younger partner of Patroklos because Patroklos was depicted as having a beard.
(The Warren Cup, from the Stanford Place Collection, on loan to the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the Sosias Painter, Achilles Binding the Wounds of Patroklos, the Staatliche Museen Preussischer Kulturbesitz)
http://www.leslielohman.com/warrencup.htm
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bi...p=Berlin+F+2278
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Paris
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"Both Alexander and President Bush are the most powerful leaders of their day, raised in the shadow of dynamic fathers who also wielded worldwide influence, and defined by an ambitious and ongoing war in a foreign land that is historically difficult to occupy. Both men spent years pursuing a high-profile enemy leader who fled into the hills of the Middle East."
http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sa...po/10247251.htm
It all makes sense now! it is the best explanation why americans destroys every historical archive and promote Alexander as gay. Maybe for Hollywood/US the next historic gay figure will be the... Jesus Christ or Mohamed?
Nobody is against the Gay movement, but it is obvious that Oliver Stone is against GAYS with this horror historically film.
Last edited by Paris on 23-11-2004 at 03:30
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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
I think that there did end up being one woman who he fell for, but most of what I read said that he prefered men mostly (she came into his life relatively late).
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The marriage to Roxanne cemented a political alliance with Central Asian tribes, thus securing Alexander's Northern frontier. She was the daughter of a local king. These tribes had earlier defeated a detachment of his army.
Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 23-11-2004 at 04:11
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Jon Miller
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I don't think it was that girl
I might be wrong
Jon Miller
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21-11-2004 02:38
sorry, forgot about that
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